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Thread: Samuval, Direfang and Porthios walk into a bar

  1. #1
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    Default Samuval, Direfang and Porthios walk into a bar

    Hi there.

    Spoilers ahead! BEWARE!





    So, I've started designing a new adventure based on one of my favourite AD&D Dragonlance adventures, The Oak Lords, and some consequences of the fall of Qualinost and two of the more recent DL sagas, The Elven Exiles and The Stonetellers. Briefly, the brilliant Stonetellers trilogy ends with the surviving goblinoids and their allies about to establish a settlement between the eastern edges of the forest and the dwarven mountains having followed a nameless river upstream all the way at 433 AC.

    Now, most of the elven army invaded the forests from the east coast in 426 AC led by Alhana, Porthios and Samar after they left the Inath-Wakenti, and at the end of the book it is said that a recovering Kerienseray joins them a few months later, with "Central Qualinost" turned into a war zone with devastated villages and constant skirmishes and raids, the elves fighting on two sides against Samuval's forces from Abanasinia to the north and dark knights and mercenaries coming from the south bank of the Ahlanlas river, perhaps from a Nerakan stronghold called the Black Hall, named several times in both trilogies but never detailed.

    Now, I'm a map geek, I draw them and use them as inspiration every single time I start a campaign. My problem with this situation, which makes for a beautiful campaign in the times of war, heroism and so many other great things, is that I cannot get that inspiration not knowing entirely where everyone is. And I don't.

    Based on mind-numbing calculations fed with a starting-to-be-dangerously-worn Tasslehoff's Map Pouch Age of Mortals edition, three cups of coffee and too much sleep deprivation (it's 02:18 here in the Lucky Islands as I'm writing this), I estimate that the goblins landed from Schallsea somewhere between Ankatavaka and Porlinost, moved east, founded Rock Town seven years after Porthios and the gang came back, it got destroyed, moved more to the east and founded yet another settlement, this time supposed to be a definitive one, somewhere close to the Dark Tower, all of this while not encountering any Samuval- or Porthios-related forces.

    So, my choices are:

    Ignore the canon and go for it. The canon is fallible after all. Yeah, I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate to do that. Really, I can't. The Chamber of Astinus is great, the Lexicon is even greater, and I'm a nostalgic.


    Assume the dates are approximate and improvise from there. That I could live with.


    Ask for guidance in the forums. I'm definitely doing that right now.

    Any ideas on how to handle this?

  2. #2
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    Ignoring canon is always my default assumption. After all, the River of Time is mutable, so you may well establish Another Canon.
    It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you [...] YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER.
    E. G. Gygax, Dungeon Masters Guide, 1979.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daperdepa View Post
    Based on mind-numbing calculations fed with a starting-to-be-dangerously-worn Tasslehoff's Map Pouch Age of Mortals edition, three cups of coffee and too much sleep deprivation (it's 02:18 here in the Lucky Islands as I'm writing this), I estimate that the goblins landed from Schallsea somewhere between Ankatavaka and Porlinost, moved east, founded Rock Town seven years after Porthios and the gang came back, it got destroyed, moved more to the east and founded yet another settlement, this time supposed to be a definitive one, somewhere close to the Dark Tower, all of this while not encountering any Samuval- or Porthios-related forces.

    So, my choices are:

    Ignore the canon and go for it. The canon is fallible after all. Yeah, I cannot emphasize enough how much I hate to do that. Really, I can't. The Chamber of Astinus is great, the Lexicon is even greater, and I'm a nostalgic.


    Assume the dates are approximate and improvise from there. That I could live with.


    Ask for guidance in the forums. I'm definitely doing that right now.

    Any ideas on how to handle this?
    Well, as I recall from Stonetellers, we have an exact date given when you correlate how many years the gnoll lived with the mystics of Schallsea Island. Which can be connected with the Silver Stair, which allows you to correlate the date with Goldmoon going to the Schallsea, which then has a date link to the Chaos War. I came up with 433 AC a long time ago.

    Personally I stick with the books as canon and not approximate. In my mind, the goblins survive because they have an adopted dwarf who will become a Chislev high priest. Because of that, the goblins gained access to underground tunnels left over by Qualinesti/Thorbardin alliance before the War of Souls. Although most of the tunnels underneath Qualinost flooded, the tunnels were extensive enough to reach out into the forest and shelter the goblins. The dwarf girl would make alliances with Thorbardin/Neidar dwarves to harbor the goblins as long as they are peaceful. Under the protection of Chislev, the goblins are able to avoid any major clashes with Porthios, Alhana, and Kerinsay's war against Samuval. In fact, when Zivlyn (under punishment as a walking avatar) has council with Chislev's high priestess, they form an alliance against the dark Knights. The history of dark knights trying to exterminate the rogue Goblins in Stoneteller's trilogy would further help goblins set aside their differences to fight an common enemy. The goblin's also have the support of mystics from Schallsea, who I imagine would speak up for the goblins.

    Ultimate, if I were the handle everything, Qualinesti is still a hotbed of conflict. Porthios would initially want to exterminate the goblins. Samuval would exploit the situation by instigating elf-goblin conflict. Goblins will fight to protect themselves. This state of affairs until stalwart adventurers meet each side and a series of adventures, and eventually help the good guys form alliances to beat up the bad guys. In this case Goblins, good humans, elves, and dwarves all ban together to fight off Samuval and his thugs.



    *HOWEVER* just to be devilish, I might also upend everything. Kerinsay finds love with Porthios after the goblins kill Alhana in a skimish (Hiddukel is involved). This forms a very pro-qualinesti/kagonesti marriage with Porthios. the goblin extermination turns into a bloodbath after Porthios and Kerinsay go dark and start burning down forests to get at those goblins (Sargonnas is involved). The goblins go deep underground with the help of that dwarf priestess because Chislev is angry at Porthios and Kerin. This war turns the goblins bogeymen who dig tunnels and pop out of the ground to murder elves and men in the night (Chemosh is involved). Porthios goes nuclear and begins summoning undead, including the ghost of his sister, Laurana in the Lake of death to start patrolling the forest. This turns all of Qualinesti into a nightmare, where only elves and the undead live (or unlive as the case may be) (Chemosh is definitely involved). This pulls in the Forestmaster of Darkenwood and it's centaurs to wage war against the elves and their undead. Samuval is enjoying all this, spreading his alternative facts about elves being all evil and undead and that he needs help from good humans everywhere to drive away the goblin+elven scourges (Hiddukel is involved).
    Fanwank
    Formerly from Wikipedia, circa 2006-7,
    A fanwank is [...] an attempt by fans of a work of fiction to explain or justify plot holes or continuity errors, often through convoluted contrivances...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    *HOWEVER* just to be devilish, I might also upend everything. Kerinsay finds love with Porthios after the goblins kill Alhana in a skimish (Hiddukel is involved). This forms a very pro-qualinesti/kagonesti marriage with Porthios. the goblin extermination turns into a bloodbath after Porthios and Kerinsay go dark and start burning down forests to get at those goblins (Sargonnas is involved). The goblins go deep underground with the help of that dwarf priestess because Chislev is angry at Porthios and Kerin. This war turns the goblins bogeymen who dig tunnels and pop out of the ground to murder elves and men in the night (Chemosh is involved). Porthios goes nuclear and begins summoning undead, including the ghost of his sister, Laurana in the Lake of death to start patrolling the forest. This turns all of Qualinesti into a nightmare, where only elves and the undead live (or unlive as the case may be) (Chemosh is definitely involved). This pulls in the Forestmaster of Darkenwood and it's centaurs to wage war against the elves and their undead. Samuval is enjoying all this, spreading his alternative facts about elves being all evil and undead and that he needs help from good humans everywhere to drive away the goblin+elven scourges (Hiddukel is involved).
    I am also planning to upend everything in a similar way in my firearms-era dragonlance campaign. I was going to have a white robed qualinesti mage attempts to use that Plinth of Chislev in the Stonetellers book to restore qualinesti and drive the goblins and the humans out. Instead, the magic goes wild, and the enchanted forest of Wayreth expands to cover the entire Qualinesti woods, becoming an uncanny faerie land. The goblins become lean and mischevious (tasloi), their hobgoblins become pooka (fey warlocks) and the humans become bestial wild men. Porthios becomes the mad scarred king, ruling over points of light and safety in the shadowy faerie realm, but his court is claustrophobic and treacherous. Porthios needs adventurers to help keep the monsters at bay, but he hates outsiders for what they have done to his kingdom, and mistrusts his fellow elves since he was exiled as a dark elf.

    edit: Silvanesti changed to Qualinesti
    Last edited by ferratus; 09-28-2017 at 07:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    I am also planning to upend everything in a similar way in my firearms-era dragonlance campaign. I was going to have a white robed qualinesti mage attempts to use that Plinth of Chislev in the Stonetellers book to restore qualinesti and drive the goblins and the humans out. Instead, the magic goes wild, and the enchanted forest of Wayreth expands to cover the entire Silvanesti woods, becoming an uncanny faerie land. The goblins become lean and mischevious (tasloi), their hobgoblins become pooka (fey warlocks) and the humans become bestial wild men. Porthios becomes the mad scarred king, ruling over points of light and safety in the shadowy faerie realm, but his court is claustrophobic and treacherous. Porthios needs adventurers to help keep the monsters at bay, but he hates outsiders for what they have done to his kingdom, and mistrusts his fellow elves since he was exiled as a dark elf.
    It's still a draft in my mind, but I intend to use the Plinth of Chislev as a shard of the Tree of Life, a sacred artifact of Chislev that appeared in The Oak Lords and is supposed to preserve the forests of Krynn. Porthios' mother, now a powerful witchlin freed from her astral prison, will try to create an army of bone acolytes and warriors to start a war between elves and goblins, reunite the plinth with the tree and perform a dark version of the revitalizing ritual described in the adventure to eradicate the forest and turn every elf in it into witchlins under her control

    Usual evil mastermind stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daperdepa View Post
    It's still a draft in my mind, but I intend to use the Plinth of Chislev as a shard of the Tree of Life, a sacred artifact of Chislev that appeared in The Oak Lords and is supposed to preserve the forests of Krynn. Porthios' mother, now a powerful witchlin freed from her astral prison, will try to create an army of bone acolytes and warriors to start a war between elves and goblins, reunite the plinth with the tree and perform a dark version of the revitalizing ritual described in the adventure to eradicate the forest and turn every elf in it into witchlins under her control

    Usual evil mastermind stuff.
    Is porthios's mother going to be the same mother we've seen in Dragons of winter Night?
    Fanwank
    Formerly from Wikipedia, circa 2006-7,
    A fanwank is [...] an attempt by fans of a work of fiction to explain or justify plot holes or continuity errors, often through convoluted contrivances...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    Is porthios's mother going to be the same mother we've seen in Dragons of winter Night?
    Nope. In The Oak Lords it ("Los Seņores del Roble" in the Spanish version) it is said that Solostaran's wife is dead, a powerful evil wizard that became a witchlin after her death and is imprisoned in the Chamber of Life at the Hall of the Sky, an astral replica palace floating over the Tower of the Sun.

    I remembered reading at some point that her mother 's death had greatly affected Laurana, and also of course the fact the the Speaker has an unnamed wife in the Chronicles, so my approach is going to be like this: Solostaran's first wife, mother of his three children, was a gifted spellcaster that never fuly exploited her talent, inherited by Gilthanas, because of her role as mother / queen. She was eventually seduced by Chemosh, whom his previous success with Sylvianna has shown the possibilities of a powerful charismatic elven woman as a pawn, became a necrotheurge and was stopped just short of commiting some kind of atrocity against the realm. Her treason was silenced, (she took her own life and only the Speaker and the royal guard were aware of it) and a false story about an accident was spinned for the public and her children. Her soul sold to Chemosh, she was imprisoned in the safest place Solostaran knew when she became a witchlin.

    Then she was released when a time stasis spell of a now dead astral dragon was pierced by mercenaries during the war, and is back into business.

    Incidentally, I think there is a thread about Solostaran's wives somewhere in the forum's archives.
    Last edited by daperdepa; 09-29-2017 at 09:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by daperdepa View Post
    Nope. In The Oak Lords it ("Los Seņores del Roble" in the Spanish version) it is said that Solostaran's wife is dead, a powerful evil wizard that became a witchlin after her death and is imprisoned in the Chamber of Life at the Hall of the Sky, an astral replica palace floating over the Tower of the Sun.

    I remembered reading at some point that her mother 's death had greatly affected Laurana, and also of course the fact the the Speaker has an unnamed wife in the Chronicles, so my approach is going to be like this: Solostaran's first wife, mother of his three children, was a gifted spellcaster that never fuly exploited her talent, inherited by Gilthanas, because of her role as mother / queen. She was eventually seduced by Chemosh, whom his previous success with Sylvianna has shown the possibilities of a powerful charismatic elven woman as a pawn, became a necrotheurge and was stopped just short of commiting some kind of atrocity against the realm. Her treason was silenced, (she took her own life and only the Speaker and the royal guard were aware of it) and a false story about an accident was spinned for the public and her children. Her soul sold to Chemosh, she was imprisoned in the safest place Solostaran knew when she became a witchlin.

    Then she was released when a time stasis spell of a now dead astral dragon was pierced by mercenaries during the war, and is back into business.

    Incidentally, I think there is a thread about Solostaran's wives somewhere in the forum's archives.
    *nods* I curious about how you would deal with this. This because became a HUGE canon flamewar when last I brought up Oaklords. I think I ended putting away my timeline because of some of the fighting about Solostaran's wives. That and because opposing sides stopped talking because the absolutely did not want to legitimize Oaklords.

    In my version, I'm running on several timelines. Chronicles runs on a timeline I call Fistandantilus-1, where Fisty, Phergas, and Denubis started the dwarfgate wars in 39AC. Events proceed as we read in Chronicles. I had placed Solostarian's wife as alive and present in Chronicles. She was with Solostarian when Quanlinesti fled to Qualimori. And she was there when Laurana returned, giving her wayward daughter a more aloof greeting. However, in Legends, Tasslehoff went back in time during Legends, creating what I call timeline Raistlin-1. In this timeline Raistlin, Caramon, and Crysania went in time to approx a hundred years after the Cataclysm. This does fundamentally change some things as the timeline shifts to accommodate the Dwarfgate Wars in 100 AC rather than 39 AC. In Raistlin-1, Laurana's mother dies, and becomes the witchlin.

    So, both Chronicles are true, depending on the timeline you're in. WHEW, a lot of people were spitting fire about that one.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    *nods* I curious about how you would deal with this. This because became a HUGE canon flamewar when last I brought up Oaklords. I think I ended putting away my timeline because of some of the fighting about Solostaran's wives. That and because opposing sides stopped talking because the absolutely did not want to legitimize Oaklords.

    In my version, I'm running on several timelines. Chronicles runs on a timeline I call Fistandantilus-1, where Fisty, Phergas, and Denubis started the dwarfgate wars in 39AC. Events proceed as we read in Chronicles. I had placed Solostarian's wife as alive and present in Chronicles. She was with Solostarian when Quanlinesti fled to Qualimori. And she was there when Laurana returned, giving her wayward daughter a more aloof greeting. However, in Legends, Tasslehoff went back in time during Legends, creating what I call timeline Raistlin-1. In this timeline Raistlin, Caramon, and Crysania went in time to approx a hundred years after the Cataclysm. This does fundamentally change some things as the timeline shifts to accommodate the Dwarfgate Wars in 100 AC rather than 39 AC. In Raistlin-1, Laurana's mother dies, and becomes the witchlin.

    So, both Chronicles are true, depending on the timeline you're in. WHEW, a lot of people were spitting fire about that one.
    Mmm, the Kelvin timeline again. It is an elegant solution, but I had thought of different approach: some time ago I created an adventure for one of my PCs whose character was a Knight of the Sword shortly before the Chaos War. It was a quest, designed with the directives supplied on the DLCS source book, during which he and the rest of the party had to track and recover a lost mystical relic of Habbakuk, the Phoenix Gate, which transported them back in time to the Outcrying time. It turned out that they were the ones who had successfully protected the relic from Takhisis' agents at the time and hidden it in a secure location, from which they rescued it back in their own time after defeating the last surviving cultist from before.

    Being honest, I took the plot from Gargoyles.

    My idea now is similar. At some point during the adventure, the PCs will cross paths with a magical effect that will send them to the past or a simulacrum of the past, like Mindspin, greater. My best candidate now is the Plinth of Chislev, which contains the wisdom of ages through the spirits of their previous owners. Once in the past / simulated past, they will be responsible for the defeat of the first wife, saving Solostaran in the process, and he will make them swear secrecy for the greater good, his people his family et cetera. This will hopefully reconcile the different versions in the canon for the characters.

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