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Thread: Ogres of Krynn (Volo's guide style writeup)

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    There are playable Ogres in DLA, written just before the Minotaurs on page 68. I'm just making Oni that are half-way between Irda and Ogres. Irda make good sorcerers and bards, but not good warriors. So I mixed in some Ogre with my Irda to make playable warrior Ogre PC's. Half-ogres, if you will, which you said you don't have a problem with. They are just half-Irda instead of half-human. Also, you don't require sexual violence to be a part of every ogre PC's backstory.

    But Dhamon Grimwulf had an Ogre companion like Huma had Kaz, named Maldred. Ogres also showed up in Douglas Niles' Icewall trilogy, where they looked a lot like my Hibagon Ogres here and they intermarried with humans and created a new civilization where humans and ogres co-existed. Then of course, you have the Ogre Titans trilogy, where Ogres are showing up as a race and culture capable of complex thought and making alliances with Solamnia.

    So obviously, there is a lot of selective memory going on in this thread in terms of simply casting Ogres as just simple minded brutes and only monsters who cannot possibly belong in a party of adventurers. Or at least, not really paying attention to what has been done with Ogres in the setting for twenty years now.
    I suppose I should have distinguished between Irda and Ogres when mentioning DLA, then For what is worth I don't allow Irda as PCs, either.
    I have no idea about Niles nor Knaak's books; call it "not paying attention" if you wish.
    And in any case, the fact that a book exists doesn't mean I have to like an idea and use it in my games. So again, more power to you and good luck with your campaign.
    Last edited by Turambar; 08-23-2017 at 07:56 AM.
    It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you [...] YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    No, I don't think so for a few reasons.

    1) The draconians have shown no interest in commanding other races in the lore.
    That's not true. Dwarven Depths discusses in depth the Draconian desire to show they could command a wing of the dragon army, not just draconians. I think Auraks are definitely the type to want to command and/or be the big bad guy. And that was the central plot of Champions of Krynn.

    2) The draconians, since there are 10 different types, largely have enough variety in their own race to make a varied adversary all on their own.
    Which is why I consider them akin to Drow. Shock troops, clerics and casters all in one. Also, there is no reason to think an Aurak with a few Sivak lieutenants couldn't infiltrate another races leadership and take over.

    3) The draconians in Teyr have basically been on the side of the forces of good throughout the age of mortals. They act more like dragonborn in the Player's Handbook, proud and honourable. In the lore, they are simply seeking to build a better place for their children. They may expand eventually, but that will take centuries before they build up the numbers to be a threatening army again. But I don't see them in thrall to the dark gods or demons, or being particularly slaveringly evil like the drow or orcs.
    What book did you read that they are on the side of good? I only read that they were on their own side. With significant numbers of draconians being mercenaries for any evil tyrant around.

    I've also made this argument in various places, but the draconian birth rate is astronomical. Females lay 2d4 eggs per clutch and can reproduce as often as other reptiles, which is yearly.

    Originally there were 20 female Draconians. If you assume they lay eggs in 5 SC, they would lay 100 eggs based on the average and of those 51 would be female. If you assume out of that 51, only 40 will reproduce because of various reason, choice, death, stillborn, etc. And if you assume the original 20 reproduce again only every 5 years you would get a ridiculous population growth.

    If that pattern followed, by 35 SC you would have 240 females that were of age to lay eggs and would lay ~1,200 eggs. If you make the assumption they get sick of having kids and stop re-producing after 3 clutches, there would still be 180 females laying eggs then. If the pattern continued by 65 SC you'd have ~1,600 females laying ~8,000 eggs.

    It is my guess that the draconians would want to jumpstart the draconian race early on, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did lay eggs yearly from 5 to 20. With that aggressive growth I think its easy to get to 1,000 females laying eggs by the start of the War of Souls.

    Basically, anytime after the War of Souls I think draconians could be in a position to produce about 1/4 of an army a year (12,000 draconians). And that would be a powerful army.

    That growth is also why I think other races would be subjugated to them. They are simply too many draconians, and the other races would sign up to be part of the great Draconian hoard. And since their birth numbers indicate a hoard, its why I also consider them the Dragonlance Orcs.

    I've basically made draconians dragonborn in my new dragonlance, since they are in the player's handbook. I might eventually come up with alternate racial abilities people can take instead of breathweapons for "elder draconians", but I'm thinking the third generation on has basically stabilized into dragonborn.

    I even came up with a whole magical/religious philosophy for the Draconians of Teyr known as "the breath of the dragon" to explain why they've recovered their breath weapons of their progenitors.
    And to tease you, what do you call your version of Dragonlance? Forgotten Realms?

    Ferratus, I don't think we've ever agreed on anything, but I sure as hell enjoy talking to you about Dragonlance.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ITA_CRX View Post
    That's not true. Dwarven Depths discusses in depth the Draconian desire to show they could command a wing of the dragon army, not just draconians. I think Auraks are definitely the type to want to command and/or be the big bad guy. And that was the central plot of Champions of Krynn.
    I don't think my last post made it here. I would like to remind everyone that in the Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home, there was an interview with a captured draconian who thought that the other races are sutible as food. More on this later.

    Quote Originally Posted by ITA_CRX View Post
    Which is why I consider them akin to Drow. Shock troops, clerics and casters all in one. Also, there is no reason to think an Aurak with a few Sivak lieutenants couldn't infiltrate another races leadership and take over.

    What book did you read that they are on the side of good? I only read that they were on their own side. With significant numbers of draconians being mercenaries for any evil tyrant around.

    I've also made this argument in various places, but the draconian birth rate is astronomical. Females lay 2d4 eggs per clutch and can reproduce as often as other reptiles, which is yearly.

    Originally there were 20 female Draconians. If you assume they lay eggs in 5 SC, they would lay 100 eggs based on the average and of those 51 would be female. If you assume out of that 51, only 40 will reproduce because of various reason, choice, death, stillborn, etc. And if you assume the original 20 reproduce again only every 5 years you would get a ridiculous population growth.

    If that pattern followed, by 35 SC you would have 240 females that were of age to lay eggs and would lay ~1,200 eggs. If you make the assumption they get sick of having kids and stop re-producing after 3 clutches, there would still be 180 females laying eggs then. If the pattern continued by 65 SC you'd have ~1,600 females laying ~8,000 eggs.

    It is my guess that the draconians would want to jumpstart the draconian race early on, so I wouldn't be surprised if they did lay eggs yearly from 5 to 20. With that aggressive growth I think its easy to get to 1,000 females laying eggs by the start of the War of Souls.

    Basically, anytime after the War of Souls I think draconians could be in a position to produce about 1/4 of an army a year (12,000 draconians). And that would be a powerful army.

    That growth is also why I think other races would be subjugated to them. They are simply too many draconians, and the other races would sign up to be part of the great Draconian hoard. And since their birth numbers indicate a hoard, its why I also consider them the Dragonlance Orcs.
    Which brings me back to first my point. With that kind of growth, can Teyr properly house so many draconians? can it even produce the amount of food necessary to sustain the population? will a lot of hungry draconians start looking at their neighbors as a food source? :P

    Seriously tho. the Draconian population is dependent on several factors. First, how much can we assume that happens to Thesik and Fonrar will happen to their children. For example, draconians do not have the same structure as dragonborn when it comes to growth and powers. One would say there were almost completely different races. I would say if dragonborn are the second/third generation dracos, when the growth rate for dragonborn need to be applied.
    From the ecology of Dragonborns from Dragon Magazine
    Like true dragons, however, dragonborn hatch from eggs, usually laid singly or, more rarely, in a pair. Hatchlings are quickly capable of standing and walking, but their teeth take a few months to come in. During this time, the mother nurses her offspring. She slowly weans the child to soft and then normal food, which for dragonborn is usually more meat than other edibles. By the end of the first year, a dragonborn hatchling has the mental and physical development of a 3-year-old human child. A dragonborn matures quickly throughout his or her youthful development. At about 12 years of age, the dragonborn is a lanky version of his or her adult self. Over the next 3 years, he or she fills out into an imposing adult form.
    Hmmm. I think I'll start a new thread about this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ITA_CRX View Post
    And to tease you, what do you call your version of Dragonlance? Forgotten Realms?

    Ferratus, I don't think we've ever agreed on anything, but I sure as hell enjoy talking to you about Dragonlance.
    Last edited by Weldon Chen; 08-23-2017 at 06:13 PM.
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  4. #24
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    The DLCS lists Teyr as having a population of 6,410.

    I think every DM in their version of Dragonlance would need to decide on the number of females in that population.

    As for feeding the new Draconian nation, they have a slow metabolism requiring half the food of a normal person.

    I think farming, hunting and the wander Kender would supply them with enough food at first.

    Later as the population grew, they could offer "protection" to neighboring farmers in exchange for food. Especially with the military bent of Draconians.

    They could even actually protect them from ogres and goblins. Thereby generally gaining some allegiance from the surrounding areas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turambar View Post
    And in any case, the fact that a book exists doesn't mean I have to like an idea and use it in my games. So again, more power to you and good luck with your campaign.
    Sorry for the length of time between replies, busy time of year for me.

    That you didn't like the idea of Ogre PC's didn't bother me, it was your assertion that I was bringing in something foreign to the setting. I had been very careful to make an Ogre that fits with how DL ogres had been described in the 1e DLA, 2e Monstrous Manual appendix, Tales of the Lance boxed set and the 3e Races of Ansalon book and of course the novels.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ITA_CRX
    What book did you read that they are on the side of good? I only read that they were on their own side. With significant numbers of draconians being mercenaries for any evil tyrant around.
    Generally, with Kang and the rest, you have been exposed to their point of view. The new Draconians seek to settle and build, live in peace, and preserve the world to be a better place for them to live in. Unlike the drow and my Ogres, draconians care for their children, rather than seeing them as agents or sacrificial pawns in order to achieve power.

    I've also made this argument in various places, but the draconian birth rate is astronomical. Females lay 2d4 eggs per clutch and can reproduce as often as other reptiles, which is yearly.
    Well, I would dispute a lot of your numbers, for example, I would imagine offspring would be weighted towards baaz, who might indeed have large families, but I would imagine a female Aurak like Thesik might only produce one egg per year.

    You see, draconians have human brains and fairly helpless infants, which means a great deal of care. Reptiles have self sufficent offspring. Baaz are dumb, so maybe we can breed up large numbers of them.

    Of course, while I'm not opposed to the idea that Draconians might spill out and attack their neighbours due to population pressure, there is one other problem with reducing draconians to orcs. In every single D&D game since 4e has been released, someone has played a dragonborn. As a now common PC race (and sympathetic characters in the Kang novels) , it is hard to reduce them in player's minds as a slavering horde like the Orcs of LOTR. They are more like a rival empire like the orcs in Warcraft.

    And to tease you, what do you call your version of Dragonlance? Forgotten Realms?
    Impertinent, but not unexpected. There has been a tension for 17 years since AD&D became 3e D&D about how much the core sourcebooks for the edition should influence the setting. I have always been on the side that holds that Dragonlance is unique and distinct enough to absorb change, and that players don't really care about your setting nearly as much about the character they want to play.

    Also, if I was in Weldon's game I would be excited to give variant rules about Draconians a try, because he knows Draconians better than anyone and loves them. I don't really care enough about Draconians and almost all likely players are not going to care about draconians... so adopting the dragonborn rules in the PHB are close enough.

    Plus, with the Fountain of Renewal right next door, I have an easy explanation for the draconian transformation into dragonborn. Purging the corrupt magic of their origin and granting them new ljfe as a stable and natural species.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    Well, I would dispute a lot of your numbers, for example, I would imagine offspring would be weighted towards baaz, who might indeed have large families, but I would imagine a female Aurak like Thesik might only produce one egg per year.
    Well, there's also a lot of other factors when it comes to reptiles. for example, Heat. Hot temperatures can actively change whether turtles become female or male. If we wanted to, we can control population numbers by making most of the draconians male. Females are rarer, and so there's a limited number to prevent population explosions.
    Fanwank
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    Generally, with Kang and the rest, you have been exposed to their point of view. The new Draconians seek to settle and build, live in peace, and preserve the world to be a better place for them to live in. Unlike the drow and my Ogres, draconians care for their children, rather than seeing them as agents or sacrificial pawns in order to achieve power.
    I didn't read it as that. I read it as Kang made a place in the world for Draconians, and to protect Draconians. They built an outpost and had some negative diplomatic relations with the KoN. I also don't think Kang's philosophy is one that is universally adopted by all Draconians. The Draconians had a significant history of enjoying murder, rape and dwarven spirits. I don't think Draconians could or would want to stop acting that way. I agree they would not treat their children like the Drow, but more like minotaurs. They would have some inherently evil traits and they kept the militaristic bent of their society.

    Well, I would dispute a lot of your numbers, for example, I would imagine offspring would be weighted towards baaz, who might indeed have large families, but I would imagine a female Aurak like Thesik might only produce one egg per year.
    I would prefer alternate numbers. It should be Baaz heavy, but its not listed as that. It would make a ton more sense for d2 Auraks, d4 Sivaks, d6 Bozaks, 2d4 Kapaks and 3d4 Baaz. This makes far more sense and is inline with your thinking. And I agree, I think Aurak's would reproduce less often making them a rare Draconian.

    You see, draconians have human brains and fairly helpless infants, which means a great deal of care. Reptiles have self sufficent offspring.
    Where did you get that idea? Draconian brains would be reptilian and draconic. And since they lay eggs, their offspring would be more self sufficient, not helpless. And aren't they fully grown at 12? That goes along with a rapid growth.

    Baaz are dumb, so maybe we can breed up large numbers of them.

    Of course, while I'm not opposed to the idea that Draconians might spill out and attack their neighbours due to population pressure, there is one other problem with reducing draconians to orcs.
    I think this is a communication issue. I'm not saying we reduce Baaz to Orcs, I'm saying they are huge numbers of Baaz ala Orcs and basically fighters like Orcs. So if you have a huge number of Baaz, that is the comparison to orcs, by shear numbers.

    In every single D&D game since 4e has been released, someone has played a dragonborn. As a now common PC race (and sympathetic characters in the Kang novels) , it is hard to reduce them in player's minds as a slavering horde like the Orcs of LOTR. They are more like a rival empire like the orcs in Warcraft.
    I think this is another communication issue.

    I am comparing Draconians to Orcs based on numbers. Based on the Draconian birth rate, its easy to see how to get a Draconian hoarde. I also compare them to Drow, not based on their evil ambitions, but that Auraks and Sivaks are high level thinkers and would be the analog to Drow which had Wizards and Priests and Fighters.

    So Aurak is the equivalent of a Drow Priestess or Wizard.
    Sivaks and Bozaks are a lower level Drow.
    Kapaks and Baaz are the Drow fighters and Commoners.

    I don't think the Draconians are an analog, but they have a couple similarities that could be used to replace Drow with Draconians.

    Instead of a Drow Priestess being the mastermind of the evil conspiracy, it would be an Aurak.

    So each race of Draconians would be compared to a type of Drow.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    Well, there's also a lot of other factors when it comes to reptiles. for example, Heat. Hot temperatures can actively change whether turtles become female or male. If we wanted to, we can control population numbers by making most of the draconians male. Females are rarer, and so there's a limited number to prevent population explosions.
    It would be interesting. If temperature was a factor, Draconians could then use magic to produce something like a 90% female birth rate for several years to pump up the population.

    I think it would be good to put forth rules for how often they could lay eggs and use a reduced clutch size based on race. Auraks having small clutches and the longest duration between fertility. Baaz being the opposite.

    Baaz d6
    Kapak d8
    Bozak 2d6
    Sivak 2d8
    Aurak 2d10

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