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Thread: Intercontinental Trade on Krynn

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by bguy View Post
    The Chronicles don't really support the idea on Ansalon being a land of mystery were trade is minimal. There we had Derek Crownguard and company having no problem getting to and from Solamnic territory to Tarsis. The First Council of Whitestone where nations from all over Ansalon attended a diplomatic conference. And perhaps most tellingly Tanis and company not thinking it was a big deal to charter a ship from Flotsam to take them to Palanthas or Sancrist. (Nor did Maquesta seem that concerned with sailing off into the west.) If ships can be easily chartered to sail from the Blood Sea to Solamnia then obviously the continent has recovered a great deal from the Cataclysm. (Which makes sense given that the Cataclysm was 350 years prior. It would be absurd if Ansalon had not recovered after that much time.)
    Three hundred years isn't that much time when you consider that it is a asteroid extinction level event. You had 1/5th of the continent literally blown away. That means decades of famines, and massive extinction level event (biodiversity is probably much reduced compared to before the cataclysm, particularly in terms of megafauna), that means a couple years of winter and darkness where people literally clustered around whatever wizard could conjure magical light and heat. We are talking complete population collapse from cities of millions to clustered communities of a few hundred.

    Three hundred years is not a long time to recover from that. It is a very short time, and is proof that the Gods in fact did not abandon Krynn.

    But if ships can sail from Flotsam to Solamnia, why wouldn't they be able to sail from Ak-Khurman to Solamnia. The Goodlund Peninsula is not some insurmountable barrier to get around.
    Because it is cheaper and easier for the Solamnics to stop in Flotsam. The Khur and Baliforians bring the goods from Khur across the Khurman Sea to Port Balifor, then overland on the narrow part of the peninsula to Flotsam. The Solamnics avoid having to take a long, expensive, isolating and unnecessary trip around the peninsula, through Minotaur infested waters.

    If you look at trade routes you will always find that they look to cut off time spent on the boat whenever possible, as long as there are middle-men who want to trade fairly. When the middle men start getting more expensive than tripling the length of your sea route, then you start looking for alternatives. The Goodlund penninsula is long, doesn't really have many people worth trading with, and would require sailing through Clare Elian where the Minotaurs collect a lot of their timber and sinister monks will tax your passage through their strait. Better to do business in Balifor.

    In peacetime I would agree with you but remember that that quote was in the middle of the War of the Lance. Solamnia's vast verdant farming plains were under enemy occupation at the time and Kalaman (which is obviously the grain port for the Solamnic plains) was under Dragonarmy siege. Thus the Palanthians couldn't get food from the Solamnic plains, which is why I imagine they were supplying southern Solamnia with food purchased from the Northern Ergothians.
    Well they are certainly not going to get rice from Blodehelm during the War of the Lance, or really anywhere else besides Northern Ergoth. Palanthas probably had to use up its own stores, and probably had a hard couple of years (like everyone else) following the war.

    But you were talking about it as it was an ongoing thing.

    On the other hand Ansalon does have a goddess who is becoming more active in world affairs and is devoted to encouraging trade. All it takes is for Shinare to send a religious vision to some merchant prince about the wealth to be had from sailing to Taladas or Adlatum and get the ball rolling.
    Sure, but you know, she is the goddess of trade, so that trade actually has to make sense and be profitable.

    But it seems in this thread people want Ansalon to have everything. It has all the good commodities. It has the best ships in the world. It is the source of all invention. It has the most dynamic trade. It is the favoured of all the gods. It will sail out and conquer everything, because it has to follow Europe's history. Bah humbug!

    Sounds reasonable, though I still think that once Ansalon starts trading overseas (even if that doesn't happen for one hundred years), Palanthas would be in the vanguard.
    Sure, though I don't understand why Palanthas gets to have everything. The primary identity of the Ergothians and the Saifhumi is that they are mariners, complete with iconic representations and an official class in the Age of Mortals book.

    Palanthas is already the seat the greatest empire on Ansalon, the seat of the most powerful military, the dominant culture. At least the Tower of High Sorcery was taken from them. Why do they have to have the primary control of merchantile shipping as well? Is Ansalon more than just a Solamnic continent?

    Why not. It sounds like most of the damage to the city during the Blue Lady's War was probably from fires raging out of control and while that would do a great deal of damage to buildings within the city, it wouldn't necessarily kill that many people. (Think of the Great Fire of London which destroyed 7/8 of the city's housing, but had a small death toll.) If most of the city's population survived the Blue Lady's War then the city should have been able to recover quickly. (Especially since access to clerics of Mishakal would allow for the population to grow very rapidly, since they would prevent plagues from devastating the city.)
    It would still be extremely expensive, and all of Solamnia would have to recover the costs of the war. But I don't see a small death toll when you had literal banshees whose screams can kill you when you hear them, dragonfear and death knight fear causing everyone to flee in a blind panic, draconians dropping from the Flying Citadel and gliding down everywhere in the city, and so forth being an even with a small death count.

    You'll notice that Palanthas didn't really put up much of a resistance after the fall of the High Clerist's Tower to Ariakan's legions, and it probably was because they simply didn't have the strength. Palanthas would stay under Nerakan control for the next 30 years. Since they submitted to the Nerakan yoke, they avoided war with the Dragon Overlord Khellendros and probably had favourable access to trade in Nerakan controlled lands. Since it is Palanthas, merchants were probably still being tolerated by their traditional allies. This is where du Chagne and other merchant lords would have really made their money and rebuilt the city.

    After Khellendros was dead, and Solamnia was attacked by Ankhar's horde, Palanthas would have also avoided the worst of that as well. There is enough time for Palanthas to be wealthy again by Markham's rise if you don't rush it. Before that, Palanthas doesn't really need to be wealthy. So in the end the story can make sense that way, taking 70 years to rebuild, rather than assuming they could reconstruct the city quickly.

    You don't think the wealthiest surviving city on Ansalon would be an incredibly tempting target to raiders and warlords if it wasn't properly defended? And for most of the Age of Despair, Palanthas wouldn't have any wizards (at least not openly.) Wizards had been banned from the city during the Kingpriest's reign (mentioned in the short story "True Knight") and weren't really allowed back in until Dalamar opened up the Tower of High Sorcery.
    I'm saying it is fairly easy to defend with a minimal amount of force. You don't need a massive navy to discourage pirates because it is naturally very well protected.

    As for wizards in Palanthas, you are incorrect. Two full fledged conclave archmages, Justarius and Antimodes, hail from Palanthas, and it had a wizard's school for girls. sources: Soulforge, Night of the Eye trilogy.

    As well, Justarius was a playboy in his youth that didn't really take the study of magic seriously, while Antimodes was half-merchant, so it is obvious wizards are part of the social fabric of Palanthas in an open and casual way.

    We know Ansalon has tarbean tea (which is obviously coffee.) Where do you think it is coming from if not Nordmaar?
    Who says its coffee, maybe it is this instead? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coca_tea

    But yeah, I don't want to stick the entire spice trade in Nordmaar or keep everything (silk, spices, tea, coffee, cocoa, surgarcane, chilies etc etc.) all on Ansalon, or there is no real reason to visit other continents at all... and therefore people lacking in all those commodities will come to Ansalon instead. If that's the way the community wants to go with it, that's fine too. Otherwise we should save some commodities for Taladas, Adlatum, and the other two continents. Myself I'm a big fan of the Isle of Gargath being a place to find all sorts of exotic things, given the power of the graygem over that island. I'm imagining it likeSocotra, which is place where a third of its plant species can't be found anywhere else on earth.

    But wouldn't the Silvanesti exiles in Southern Ergoth still be producing goods. Indeed trade with the outside world would be essential for them. Southern Ergoth can't really support both the Silvanesti and Kagonesti populations, but the Silvanesti could produce luxury goods there, sell them to the outside world, and use the profits from that to purchase food supplies.

    As for Silvanesti being a living nightmare post-War of the Lance, it was being reclaimed over those 30 years, so each year more and more of the land would be restored. And the parts that were restored could obviously be resettled and start producing trade goods which the Silvanesti would need to sell to the outside world to fund the rebuilding of their capital. (Pink marble ain't cheap.)
    I'm still not buying the fact that Silvanesti traded after the War of the Lance, there just isn't enough time to get re-established, open a trade route, and overcome their own traditionalism and isolationism. Southern Ergoth however being a place that produces Silvanesti goods for the Palanthas market makes much more sense. They are right next to Solamnia's main pilgrimage site (the tomb of Huma), and the people from Silvanesti who would stay in Ergoth would probably be the lower castes who make stuff, because they would lose the social mobility they gained if they returned to Silvanesti.

    If Khurish war horses are better than Solamnic breeds, then there are Solamnic nobles that will be willing to pay the extra price. And if there is a demand then some enterprising trader will find a way to get the horses from Khur to Solamnia. (The Spanish were able to get horses across the Atlantic Ocean, so I'm sure the Khur can figure out how to get them from Khur to Solamnia.)
    I'm sure there would be desire for Khurish horses for leisure riding, showing off, and perhaps breeding, but the Solamnics have a completely different form of warfare than the Khur, and therefore a larger, taller, and stronger horse for doing their fighting on. The Solamnics charge with heavily armoured calvary, while the Khur are more about mobility and lighter, faster, calvary. I do think that Solamnia would trade with Khur (through intermediaries) I just don't think they are hugely interested in their horses. Rugs and incense though probably would be more desirable, more profitable, and easier to transport.

    Well I would certainly expect a massive population expansion due to the return of the Gods (clerics of Mishakal would greatly curtail plagues and infant mortality, while clerics of Habakkuk would enable greatly expanded agricultural production.)
    Yeah, but within reason. As well though women don't have the size of families in Ansalon that they might have had on earth. Gender equality, access to magical contraception, and female mortality due to women participating in conflict are going to interfere with population growth. The society of Ansalon is a creative anachronism. Heck, most characters we know only had 1-3 kids because that's what is normal for us. This would be somewhat balanced by a lack of mortality, but that might just encourage people to have even less children.
    Last edited by ferratus; 05-14-2017 at 01:17 PM.
    The official canon of Dragonlance, for a variety of reasons, is not as good as it could be. I do it better.

  2. #32
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    The Palanthians = The Dutch
    Last edited by DaemonAngel; 05-14-2017 at 05:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    Three hundred years isn't that much time when you consider that it is a asteroid extinction level event. You had 1/5th of the continent literally blown away. That means decades of famines, and massive extinction level event (biodiversity is probably much reduced compared to before the cataclysm, particularly in terms of megafauna), that means a couple years of winter and darkness where people literally clustered around whatever wizard could conjure magical light and heat. We are talking complete population collapse from cities of millions to clustered communities of a few hundred.

    Three hundred years is not a long time to recover from that. It is a very short time, and is proof that the Gods in fact did not abandon Krynn.
    I think you are overstating how big the asteroid was. It definitely wasn't an extinction level event sized asteroid. (From the story True Knight we know that civilization survived the Cataclysm more or less intact in Palanthas which certainly would not have happened if Ansalon had been hit by an ELE sized asteroid.) So while the Cataclysm was certainly devastating, it seems to have been more on the level of a Black Death level event (i.e. killing from 30-60% of the population). Europe recovered from the Black Death within a century, so I don't see why it would take Ansalon much longer than that to recover from the Cataclysm.

    Because it is cheaper and easier for the Solamnics to stop in Flotsam. The Khur and Baliforians bring the goods from Khur across the Khurman Sea to Port Balifor, then overland on the narrow part of the peninsula to Flotsam. The Solamnics avoid having to take a long, expensive, isolating and unnecessary trip around the peninsula, through Minotaur infested waters.
    Maybe, but that would still involve Solamnia trading with Khur. (Even if the goods pass through Balifor along the way.)

    Well they are certainly not going to get rice from Blodehelm during the War of the Lance, or really anywhere else besides Northern Ergoth. Palanthas probably had to use up its own stores, and probably had a hard couple of years (like everyone else) following the war.
    Well the Dragonarmies don't seem to have been doing too much to prevent merchants in their territory from trading with the western nations. (Based on Maquesta clearly believing she could sail to the west without trouble.) So it wouldn't be impossible for Blodehelm rice to make its way to Palanthas during the WotL. But I agree it is much more likely the Palanthians were purchasing food from Northern Ergoth during the war.

    Sure, though I don't understand why Palanthas gets to have everything. The primary identity of the Ergothians and the Saifhumi is that they are mariners, complete with iconic representations and an official class in the Age of Mortals book.

    Palanthas is already the seat the greatest empire on Ansalon, the seat of the most powerful military, the dominant culture. At least the Tower of High Sorcery was taken from them. Why do they have to have the primary control of merchantile shipping as well? Is Ansalon more than just a Solamnic continent?
    Well Solamnia is the dominant human nation on Ansalon, so in many ways Ansalon is the Solamnic continent. (Especially now that Qualinost and Silvanost have both fallen.)

    And really what does Palanthas have if it isn't the primary mercantile power on the continent? The Palanthians aren't considered great warriors. (Quite the opposite in fact.) Nor are they an industrial powerhouse. And in the 5th Age they don't even have the Tower of High Sorcery or Astinus anymore. Being a great trading power is what makes the city important.

    It would still be extremely expensive, and all of Solamnia would have to recover the costs of the war. But I don't see a small death toll when you had literal banshees whose screams can kill you when you hear them, dragonfear and death knight fear causing everyone to flee in a blind panic, draconians dropping from the Flying Citadel and gliding down everywhere in the city, and so forth being an even with a small death count.
    The skeletal warriors and banshees were tied down fighting the Knights of Solamnia in the city, so they didn't really have a chance to run up the civilian casualties. (And especially since Soth pulled them out of the battle as soon as he had Kitiara.)

    As for the draconians, inserting them by air means they would have been widely dispersed (the bane of all airborne operations), and they would have been fighting an enemy that outnumbered them 30 to 1 on that enemy's own ground. (And a decent number of the Palanthians would have been veterans of the War of the Lance, so its not as though the draconians are going up against a helpless foe here either.)

    You'll notice that Palanthas didn't really put up much of a resistance after the fall of the High Clerist's Tower to Ariakan's legions, and it probably was because they simply didn't have the strength.
    More likely because their sky was full of evil dragons. It doesn't matter how strong the Palanthians are if the enemy army has dragons, and they do not. That is a fight they couldn't win.

    After Khellendros was dead, and Solamnia was attacked by Ankhar's horde, Palanthas would have also avoided the worst of that as well. There is enough time for Palanthas to be wealthy again by Markham's rise if you don't rush it. Before that, Palanthas doesn't really need to be wealthy. So in the end the story can make sense that way, taking 70 years to rebuild, rather than assuming they could reconstruct the city quickly.
    I'm fine with that as well. I don't think anyone is saying that Ansalon is going to immediately post-Ankhar War start sending out long distance explorations. I'm just saying that when Ansalon does reach that point, I would expect Palanthas to be in the lead.

    As for wizards in Palanthas, you are incorrect. Two full fledged conclave archmages, Justarius and Antimodes, hail from Palanthas, and it had a wizard's school for girls. sources: Soulforge, Night of the Eye trilogy.

    As well, Justarius was a playboy in his youth that didn't really take the study of magic seriously, while Antimodes was half-merchant, so it is obvious wizards are part of the social fabric of Palanthas in an open and casual way.
    Fair enough, but you will note that neither Justarius nor Antimodes did anything to help defend Palanthas at the Battle of the High Clerist's Tower or during the Blue Lady's War. It doesn't help Palanthas much to have native born wizards if those wizards won't fight for the city in its hour of need.

    Yeah, but within reason. As well though women don't have the size of families in Ansalon that they might have had on earth. Gender equality, access to magical contraception, and female mortality due to women participating in conflict are going to interfere with population growth. The society of Ansalon is a creative anachronism. Heck, most characters we know only had 1-3 kids because that's what is normal for us. This would be somewhat balanced by a lack of mortality, but that might just encourage people to have even less children.
    Where are you getting access to magical contraception from? I don't think magic is anywhere near that widespread on Ansalon for magical birth control to significantly effect the birth rate.

    Quote Originally Posted by DaemonAngel
    The Palanthians = The Dutch
    Exactly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    Nope. WOTL Sourcebook, Page 74.

    "Three hundred years after the Cataclysm folk are just beginning to look beyond their borders. What they are discovering is that the old maps are wrong and new maps are hard to find. Those few merchants and travellers that have explored this new land are the only source of news from other places and trade is minimal at best."
    Or not. WOTL source book page 14, Hill DwarvesAfter a few decades [after the cataclysm] ...sent out merchants to human cities of Solamnia. For many years they became the primary food source in the region. ...dwarves established trade with nearly every city in Solamnia.

    The entire section on Dwarves is worth reading again for how it specifies differences in the Kayolin region.

    These two quotes sounds it conflict, but they are not. This one region by Kayolin and into Solamnia had the recovery and trade after the Cataclysm but before the WOTL. The rest of the Krynn followed your quote, regions like Abanasinia and Tarsis.

    And if you read page 99 about the Kender cities, Hylo is a port and Lemon has a logging trade. Based on the size of logs I think you can infer it is by ocean instead of land from the weight of the logs and access to Lemon Bay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus
    I would say due to Ansalon's overall weak maritime tradition ...
    The whole point of this thread is trying to figure out where the trade routes are. ...
    Almost, I actually want to talk about what would happen when the continents start interacting with each other, and what they would trade with each other. Instead we have been sidetracked with talking about trade in Ansalon itself,
    Well, let me help you out. You start by saying something false based on your idea of what is a maritime tradition, then the thread went into a discussoin of the long maritime tradition of Ansalon. What you really meant was that Ansalon never really expressed any interest in traveling beyond Ansalon, so they did not have an ocean going tradition.

    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus
    Yeah, but we were talking about post-cataclysm here. Pre-cataclysm had trade around the entirety of the continent, and many great port cities including Tarsis, Palanthas, and Istar. ...
    [Palanthas has no] evidence of a trading Empire
    I think this is another one where you said something you didn't mean. The pre-cataclysm trade is another example of the maritime tradition of Ansalon. Pre-cataclysm sailing is proof that the continent had a large fleet of maritime trade and that trade went on for a long time.

    As for a trading Empire, I think you are thinking all of these cities are nation states who want to expand power like Europe did. They aren't. England didn't colonize Germany, Italy didn't colonize Spain. That would be what Palanthas would have to do to be what you are calling a trading Empire. Palanthas is basically a warehouse and merchant city with a caste of citizens who were born rich. Once you make it as a merchant, you move to Palanthas. Also, Palanthas didn't have to build any outposts or anything because of all of the villages up and down the coast.

    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus
    Heck, I was hoping to use this thread to talk about commerce on Ansalon. Instead, people want to insist that Ansalon has to be on the verge of European-style "oceanic" expansion ...
    Except no one is insiting that. Everyone is insisting Ansalon has a history of sailing and has a significant amount of commerce by ship.

    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus
    Is Ansalon a post-apocolyptic land of mystery where trade is minimal like it says in the War of the Lance sourcebook, or is it a place where people travel its length and breadth knowing all the cultures and peoples across Ansalon and easily trading with them?
    The answer is neither. Ansalon has areas with trade and areas without. The majority is areas without trade.

    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus
    That I will need a source for. It seems pretty safe to go from Solace to Haven for example.
    That is literally less than 25 miles. And it was noted that they had a problem with goblins in the area around Solace, when Tanis met Kitiara and at the start of Autumn Twilight. Could you safely travel from New Port to North Keep by land? Ankatavaka to Haven? What about Vingaard Keep to Kalaman?

    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus
    You don't need much trade for a city of 3,200 people
    No, you don't, but this is a consistent question you asked. Who did Palanthas trade with?

    The answer is everyone. Palanthas didn't trade as a whole, it had merchants that traded. You load up your ship in Palanthas and make stops at Lodestar, Ryx, Daron, Godnest, Tidesafe, Hargoth, Gander, Portsmith, Gwyntarr, Starport, Lockhard, Caergoth (24,628), Eastport, Vocalion, Ankatavaka (2,256), Goodbay, Zaradene, North Keep, Crossing, Staughton, New Port (3,219), Port O' Call, Restglen and Hamilton. Then hit Northern Ergoth enroute back to Palanthas: Manic, Lucid, Gwynned, Landfall, Guflport (4,204), and Beacon (329).

    Assuming the 25 villages I could not find population information for have roughly 300 people each, that would be 7,500 people on top of the 35,000 already known. So, Palanthas would be trading with the roughly 42,000 people that live along the coast in the Straits of Algoni cooridor. And I excluded Kalaman (9,267) from all of that. So, ~50,000 people within easy sailing distance of Palanthas.

    And since it was a merchant entering each port, he would buy/sell at every stop. He would return to Palanthas will a full cargo load and be ready to unload/load the ship to head back out to sea. A non-stop shipping industry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ferratus View Post
    what they would trade with each other.
    This is interesting to me and I like the thought experiment.

    The easy one is booze. Beer, wine, and dwarven spirits would be exotic and in demand between the continents for their different brewing processes.

    Beyond that, I think you have to make a guess about the Elves. Since you said they would reclaim Silvanesti, I think you are going to have the elves on a war footing for the 100 hundred years which means they need money. So, Elves would be producing items for trade. Elven bows, swords, gems, jewelry, wine etc. I think their new Capitol would be setup as a place to produce elven goods en mass for sale. Downside, no port. And Khuri-Khan isn't exactly a great city to trade out of, but that is basically their only choice. Maybe a caravan to Flotsam, but that is a long way to go.

    Things would get better if/when they clear out Qualinesti and have a port city there.

    Downside, my knowledge of Taladas is basically spelling its name, so I don't know what else would be in demand and I have no idea what Taladas would sell. Last I knew Taladas had some war disaster, so weapons may be in demand. Is steel the currency in Taladas? If so, maybe they just pay for goods. Someone who knows about Taladas will need to fill in that gap.

    As for whom found whom, yeah, Taladas would be the one venturing across the ocean and initiating trade. If the trade was lucrative, then I could see Palanthas hopping on board, if not, they would probably just let the Taladans come to them as a great destination.

    So, that is my guess as to what would be traded. Surplus elven goods. Hopefully someone else has a better answer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITA_CRX View Post
    This is interesting to me and I like the thought experiment.

    The easy one is booze. Beer, wine, and dwarven spirits would be exotic and in demand between the continents for their different brewing processes.
    Well, why not slaves? Seize a small sea-side village, and kidnap the inhabitants. They are transported to an unknown land where they are forced to do manual labor or unspeakable things to them.

    Really, both sides can do it. Draconians can enslave humans, minotaurs and elves in a disadvantaged Taladas that's still recovering from Chris Pierson. Likewise, Minotaurs from Taladas can start doing raids on Ansalon, enslaving draconians, Ansalonian minotuars, etc. Living beings as commodities would open up all sorts of trade. Slaves become rare collector items.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    Well, why not slaves?
    Interesting idea, and I like the evil aspect of it, but wouldn't that put both continents on a war footing and end trade between them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ITA_CRX View Post
    Interesting idea, and I like the evil aspect of it, but wouldn't that put both continents on a war footing and end trade between them?
    Well my thoughts are that neither continent is actively cohesive by the 16th century. Certain nations looking to exploit a resource might start trading slaves. let's say Teyr, as a military nation, begins attacking and enslaving the Armach elves in Taladas. Any war depends on whether Armach figures out who is emptying their villages. And also whether Armach might think the Minotaur Empire is as fault. A good tactician among the draconians might make it look like Thenol or the Minotaur League are at fault. Then, as a bonus, they can come in to Armach to parley, insight war, and casually suggest that they will form an alliance to attack the League, and enslave humans and minotaurs for hard labor. Armach being a victim will look the other way. Thus I play two sides against each other, weakening both side, which are ripe for a takeover and reap from both ends. If you think about it, in my scenario, trade is doubled. And Teyr secretly has a slavery pool to build, farm, and be food as necessary. Seriously, I'd rather do this scenario on Ansalon, but it works.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    Well my thoughts are that neither continent is actively cohesive by the 16th century. Certain nations looking to exploit a resource might start trading slaves. let's say Teyr, as a military nation,
    Teyr would need a port, and some sort of navy.

    So, probably not Teyr. Minotaurs are more likely, they have a seafaring tradition and are abusive towards weaker races and slaves, so they tend to kill them quickly creating a large need.

    Problem is, like Ferratus said, its far more probable that Taladas finds Ansalon.

    So, who in Taladas would start coastal raids to get slaves?

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