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Thread: What exactly are the rules of Magic that the Conclave enforces?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer View Post
    The Holy Six are clear that Ariakas and Raistlin are Black Robes in good standing. Dracart, too, is portrayed as a Black Robe in good standing in DL9 Dragons of Deceit (the source in which he originally appears). Raistlin has a seat on the Conclave—undoubtedly a seat that had been vacated by Ariakas or Dracart. So did Fistandantilus. Numerous Black Robes are portrayed as being in the service of the Dragonarmies, and Dalamar (a Black Robe in good standing) serves Raistlin. My only point is that I reject any interpretation of the Conclave that precludes Black Robes from actually being involved in any evil plot, and demanding that all these characters be retconned as Renegades. Black Robes are evil; therefore, the Conclave must not have rules against evil, like any of the anti-Raistlin things mentioned in the OP.
    While I personally immensely dislike the developments in the later books that made Ariakas a proto-Thorn Knight and Dracart a Renegade, the idea that the Conclave has restrictions on what kind of evil the Black Robes are allowed to practice isn't that crazy an idea.

    As a real world example of "regulated" evil consider the American Mafia in its heyday. It was manifestly an evil organization that thought nothing of murder, theft, and extortion but at the same time there were certain lines that members of the organization were not allowed to cross: most importantly that they would not kill "honest" police, prosecutors, judges. This rule existed for practical reasons rather than moral reasons (mainly because the mob feared the heat that would be brought down on them if they did kill honest law enforcement officials), but it was still a restriction an evil entity put upon itself and if members of the Mafia tried to violate that rule they would be taken out by the rest of the organization. (Which is why the mob killed Dutch Schultz when he decided he was going to assassinate New York Special Prosecutor Thomas Dewey.)

    I could imagine the Conclave imposing similar "practical" restrictions on the Black Robes. The Black Robes would be allowed within the rules of the Conclave to use their magic for "ordinary" evil purposes, but the Black Robes would be barred from using magic that might actually destroy the world, destroy the balance, or that could provoke a dangerous backlash against either the Conclave or magic itself. (The Conclave doesn't want the Lost Battles happening again, and they would probably prefer not to have dragonkind or especially the gods gunning for them, so even the Black Robes would probably see the wisdom in agreeing to forego certain areas of magic.)

  2. #12
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    I'd also like to point out that Raistlin was a Black Robe in good standing only because the Conclave was afraid of the consequences of declaring him a Renegade (either the reaction from Raistlin, or more likely, I think, the damage to their credibility when he ignores them). It seems pretty clear that there are areas of magic that are banned overall. If I recall _Legend of Huma_ correctly it was stated that the Black Robes are the least restrictive Order, as well, implying that each Order has it's own specific rules. So, maybe another interesting discussion would be what those parameters look like, rather than the rules that apply to the orders as a whole? I can see the White Robes being conflicted about skeletons, for example, while the Red Robes draw the line just before intelligent undead.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer View Post
    Raistlin has a seat on the Conclave—undoubtedly a seat that had been vacated by Ariakas or Dracart. So did Fistandantilus.
    Ummmmm, nowhere in the Holy Six did Raistlin have a seat on the Conclave. I have also read other books about Fisty, with no mention of him on the Conclave as well. Yes, they took the Test and were in good standing. They never attended meetings or were on the ruling body though.
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  4. #14
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    Hmmm. I’ll leave you with these quotes from Time of the Twins (Dragonlance Legends, Volume 1):

    A half-circle of stone chairs sat around him—twenty-one to be exact. The white-robed old man sat in the center. To his left were three indistinct figures, whether male or female, human or some other race, it was difficult to tell. Their hoods were pulled low over their faces. They were dressed in red robes. To their left sat six figures, clothed all in black. One chair among them was empty. On the old man’s right sat four more red-robed figures, and—to their right, six dressed all in white.
    “You are wise to be afraid, Great One,” Dalamar’s voice sank to a whisper. “But no matter how great your fear, you do not fear him enough. Oh, yes, he lacks power to cross that dread threshold. But that power he goes to find. Even as we speak, he is preparing himself for the long journey. Upon my return tomorrow, he will leave.”

    Par-Salian raised his head. “Your return?” he asked, shocked. “But he knows you for what you are—a spy, sent by us, the Conclave, his fellows.” The great mage’s glance went to the chair that stood empty amidst the Black Robes, then he rose to his feet.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Falconer View Post
    Hmmm. I’ll leave you with these quotes from Time of the Twins (Dragonlance Legends, Volume 1):
    I always thought that seat was Dalamar's, not Raistlin's. But the text could be read either way.

    Doesn't Book II of Time of the Twins contain a reference to Fistandantilus being head of the Conclave at the Tower of Palanthas?

    On the main topic, the general rule for the OoHS seems to be "preserve High Sorcery." Everything else--don't stir up the Muggles too much, don't let other forms of magic compete with and endanger High Sorcery, make sure that anyone who's more than a dabbler will either conform or die--seems to flow from that.
    Matthew L. Martin, Chronicler of the Martinian Canon, the Anti-Canon, Desolate Krynn and numerous other 'wrong' versions of Krynn.

  6. #16
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    Matthew, in the quote “us, the Conclave, his fellows,” why does he say “his fellows”?

    I found these quotes about Fistandantilus:
    “His room is empty, his things gone. It is believed, from certain things he said, that he has gone to the Tower of High Sorcery at Wayreth. Rumor has it that the wizards are holding a Conclave there…”
    This room was the room of Fistandantilus. It had been his for years, since the Kingpriest came to power and drove the magic-users from their Tower in Palanthas—the Tower where Fistandantilus had reigned as Head of the Conclave.

  7. #17
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    I always figured Raistlin to be regarded as a peer by the Conclave, if not an actual seated member. Same sort of deal with folks like Lorac, who honestly should have been on the Conclave too if he was such a powerful wizard.

    Cheers,
    Cam
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  8. #18
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    Falconer all of those examples are super-vague and don't confim anything. I mean no disrespect, but you are reaching for this one.
    Last edited by rogue; 03-06-2017 at 04:19 PM.
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  9. #19
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    As I said, I think the quotes speak for themselves. At least I tried.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cam Banks View Post
    I always figured Raistlin to be regarded as a peer by the Conclave, if not an actual seated member. Same sort of deal with folks like Lorac, who honestly should have been on the Conclave too if he was such a powerful wizard.

    Cheers,
    Cam
    Didn't Hourglass Mage assert that Raistlin was a renegade? I think it was some remark about his change of robe colors by having it dyed without telling the Orders.

    In any case, I've been sitting out of this conversation mainly because I type something long-winded, and then I erase it. I go with the simpler rule. I think the conclave's rules of of renegade status is completely dependent on the Gods of Magic. If the gods say "kill that mage, he's a renegade to us," then that's that. In my mind, the Gods of Magic override all rules, and therefore they are the golden rule.

    That leaves me more openings to tell whatever story I want in the game. The enforcement of the rule is the whim of the gods. Which means as DM, it's my whim to enforce it. I also follow the same guidelines in the Age of Mortals, where people have many choices of magic. The magic gods want to control the chaos, and continue spreading their influence, so each in their own manner are allowing various magic users to become registered members of the Wizards of High Sorcery. So all those guidelines about what is a renegade have become more relaxed because the gods of magic dictate to the heads of the order. Solinari cares more about doing good with magic. Lunitari cares more about choice in magic. Nuitari cares about seducing everyone else into his fold. That means they have to find the sorcerors, bard and others so as to track them.
    Fanwank
    Formerly from Wikipedia, circa 2006-7,
    A fanwank is [...] an attempt by fans of a work of fiction to explain or justify plot holes or continuity errors, often through convoluted contrivances...

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