+ Reply to Thread
Page 8 of 13 FirstFirst ... 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 ... LastLast
Results 71 to 80 of 123

Thread: Chris Perkins says there's only one story worth telling in Dragonlance

  1. #71
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Stafford, UK
    Posts
    2,842

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    I hand's down disagree with you Jester. Dragonlance is as awesome as the effort you put into it. Example:
    Zhentarim -> Dragonarmy remnants, new Knights of Takhisis, Minotaurs.
    Red Wizards -> Black robes organizing, wyldings, renegades
    Cult of the Dragon -> Cult of the dragon.
    evil Sembian merchants -> Hiddukelites
    Horde -> okay, granted, hordes would be tough. If there was a conversion, I'd go with the Tarmak invaders
    dark clerics -> Seven Evil Gods worth of dark clerics.
    drow ->An Li's metal-underground elves who have been hidden since the early days of Silvanos.
    Again, a matter of scale.
    For example, you can't compare a few scattered Hiddukelites with the whole nation of Sembia.
    Or the whatever-have-you-dragonlance-drow with the true drow and their huge civilisation, cities, gods etc.
    Or Thay's NATION of necromancers with a small cabal of black-robed wizards.
    Also, Krynnish gods form three well-distinct pantheons, whereas the Realms have a HUGE population gods-wise, and they don't easily form alliances etc. so there is more variation in how you can involve them.

    Ansalon and its organisations are simply too small to support the same kind of campaigns which can happen in the FR. I am not saying it cannot be done, but there is far less space to manoeuver, and the "feel" is inevitably different.
    With the FR you get the feel that "anything is possible." The scope of the setting is almost infinite. With Dragonlance I never felt the same. Not that it's a bad thing; they are just different. Still, Dragonlance is my favoured D&D setting.

    Finally, the name of the setting is itself. Just a weapon used in wars with dragons; which happened twice in the whole story of the setting. The name itself suggests a limited setting.
    Last edited by Turambar; 02-04-2012 at 06:41 AM.
    It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you [...] YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER.
    E. G. Gygax, Dungeon Masters Guide, 1979.

  2. #72
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    1,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    I hand's down disagree with you Jester. Dragonlance is as awesome as the effort you put into it. Example:
    Zhentarim -> Dragonarmy remnants, new Knights of Takhisis, Minotaurs.
    Red Wizards -> Black robes organizing, wyldings, renegades
    Cult of the Dragon -> Cult of the dragon.
    evil Sembian merchants -> Hiddukelites
    Horde -> okay, granted, hordes would be tough. If there was a conversion, I'd go with the Tarmak invaders
    dark clerics -> Seven Evil Gods worth of dark clerics.
    drow ->An Li's metal-underground elves who have been hidden since the early days of Silvanos.

    *and more all working in the same world at the same time.*
    I wasn't going for conversion, I was pointing out the various factions and threats the Realms came with out of the box. From the first couple products.
    Two of the above would be brand new and two Brutes and dark knights were added halfway through the life of the setting (like the empire of shades).

    Quote Originally Posted by Weldon Chen View Post
    Disagree. Let's look at Dragons of Krynn, shall we? Factions all in the same stop. Faction that wants Thesik to be queen. Faction that wants democracy. There are anti-military. and there are military. There the mysterious dragon that's way too interested in them. There are the non-dracos who are worried about this new nation. There are the knights of Takhisis who want them controlled. There are the anti-non-draco group who want to eat the non-dracos for dinner. there's the noble draconians, may be on any of those sides. Heck With males and females, we have a huge factions based on sex. And then there's Kang and Slith, who are being swamped by every conceivable faction, including dragon overlords and this neighboring magical pool that can turn Draconians into dragonborn, and how that dragonborn faction will screw things up. That's *15* Factions all running around in a very small area. Can you imagine factions in the Solamnics, Old vs new measure? or the dragon armies, white vs blue vs green vs red vs cyan vs chartreuse? or even in the qualinesti, silvanesti, Kagonesti group. Or all the factions among the ogres, irda, nunzta, Mischta, Bolandi? I can easily create factions, no sweat. Magic? Well wizarsds vs renegades. black robes vs white robes. Anti-magic people vs magic people. Wizard vs cleric. Wizards who want to be clerics for the moons. I can't even begin to cover the range of crazy factions I can envision in Dragonlance. Heck, Solace. A bunch of "landed" tree-home owners vs the immigrants who don't have trees and live below the chamber pots of the tree-huggers. I completely disagree. the lack of stories, faction and plots are only in your imagination.
    Funny things, all those examples (save the wizard options) and the Solace hook have been added to the world well after its creation. And most are ideas that can handle an adventure or arc. The problems of tree-owners versus immigrants is not an issue or problem worthy of a 1-20 campaign.

    Looking just at the 1e gaming products, without adding much, was there enough content and threats for more continent-threatening events equivalent in scope and drama and quality to the War of the Lance?
    Even with all the 3e content and recent events, were any of them even half the story of the War of the Lance? Do they have as much room for side stories and other heroes?

  3. #73
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    1,395

    Default

    Okay, stripping away everything else, my point is this: Dragonlance was designed as a setting for a story.
    Other campaign settings were designed as settings for campaigns, they were designed with hooks and story ideas that were never going to be novels, mysteries that were never going to be answered, and problems designed to be unresolved (or vaguely resolved off camera).

    Dragonlance suffers from the same problems as a campaign setting as Middle Earth or the setting of Edding's Belgariad or even the Wheel of Time. They were designed to accommodate one big story and most of the major conflicts are resolved at the end.
    There's room for other stories in Middle Earth, prequels and the like or other "Hobbits". But no other LotR.

  4. #74
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Posts
    2,643

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jester View Post
    Okay, stripping away everything else, my point is this: Dragonlance was designed as a setting for a story.
    Other campaign settings were designed as settings for campaigns, they were designed with hooks and story ideas that were never going to be novels, mysteries that were never going to be answered, and problems designed to be unresolved (or vaguely resolved off camera).

    Dragonlance suffers from the same problems as a campaign setting as Middle Earth or the setting of Edding's Belgariad or even the Wheel of Time. They were designed to accommodate one big story and most of the major conflicts are resolved at the end.
    There's room for other stories in Middle Earth, prequels and the like or other "Hobbits". But no other LotR.
    What if it was because of Legends that the setting is viewed this way? The setting at the end of the War of the Lance is still open for adventure. It is a ripe world in which the forces of good have vanquished evil temporarily.

    It wouldn't be until the Legends trilogy until you see this "one story" approach idea, and by that count we are at two. The problem with Krynn has always been that the ownership of the license milked that storyline to death without realizing what they were doing to the fan base.

    As a fan of the setting I see a lot of opportunities here during this time period to adventure. I also see the immediate threat after the War of the Lance still continuing. It is only through shortsightedness that the setting seems like a one trick pony.

    In the original trilogy you are given hints of threats, of an unknown world in which more threats are thought to exist but are unknown. It wouldn't be until after Legends that most readers walk away with the feeling that the setting was complete, which it wasn't the story of Raistlin was.
    Chuck

    Editor of the Palanthas Herald

    Member of the Whitestone Council

    Crew on the Dragonlance Canticle

    Former Contributor of the Lexicon

  5. #75
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    235

    Default

    Okay; I'll agree that DL; as originally created; was designed around a major campaign arc: i.e. the War of the Lance and all it entails (Return of the Gods; liberation of nations; forging of new alliances between races; etc.)...

    What I don't understand is why is this a problem for so many people? Now to each their own; but personally...I don't feel like you have to have continent-conquering threats to have a good campaign...but if you want to have one; the War of the Lance is there; and there's enough 'building-block' material in DL 14 and the hardcover book for campaigns set after the war or before it...in my opinion.

    I guess I'm unusual in that I don't see that a war whose outcome you already know isn't worth setting adventures in or around. Again; I go back to the Rebellion against the Empire example from Star Wars.....sure; we KNOW Luke, Han, etc. are going to blow up 2 Death Stars; flee from the Empire at Hoth and defeat the Emperor and Vader at Endor. This doesn't mean that there aren't untold numbers of great campaign ideas set during this conflict.

    I also don't understand why the size of Ansalon is a problem for people....it may be small; but even now; vast reaches of it are pretty much open for story-telling....The City of Lost Names; the Dairly Penisula; The ruins of Takar; pretty much ALL of Nordmaar; etc., etc.

    (Edit: I agree with Chuck's above post whole-heartedly!)

    Just my two cents...
    Last edited by maxvale; 02-04-2012 at 12:41 PM.

  6. #76
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maxvale View Post
    What I don't understand is why is this a problem for so many people?
    Well, define 'problem'. There's plenty of material that can be mined for post-War or other campaigns in DL . . . but I don't know if it would have much interest for those who aren't already invested in the setting. If we're considering the question of home campaigns or fanwork, that's a non-issue, but from the perspective of WotC, it makes it harder to come up with a reason to revive the setting. The original fanbase apparently hasn't been enough to sustain it at the levels that would make it a wise use of WotC's resources.

    But it's been brought to my attention that I've been too hostile and combative in this and other threads recently. So my apologies to everyone whom I've attacked, insulted or offended, and goodnight.
    Matthew L. Martin, Chronicler of the Martinian Canon, the Anti-Canon, Desolate Krynn and numerous other 'wrong' versions of Krynn.

  7. #77
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Stafford, UK
    Posts
    2,842

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maxvale View Post
    Okay; I'll agree that DL; as originally created; was designed around a major campaign arc: i.e. the War of the Lance and all it entails (Return of the Gods; liberation of nations; forging of new alliances between races; etc.)...

    What I don't understand is why is this a problem for so many people? Now to each their own; but personally...I don't feel like you have to have continent-conquering threats to have a good campaign...but if you want to have one; the War of the Lance is there; and there's enough 'building-block' material in DL 14 and the hardcover book for campaigns set after the war or before it...in my opinion.

    I guess I'm unusual in that I don't see that a war whose outcome you already know isn't worth setting adventures in or around. Again; I go back to the Rebellion against the Empire example from Star Wars.....sure; we KNOW Luke, Han, etc. are going to blow up 2 Death Stars; flee from the Empire at Hoth and defeat the Emperor and Vader at Endor. This doesn't mean that there aren't untold numbers of great campaign ideas set during this conflict.

    I also don't understand why the size of Ansalon is a problem for people....it may be small; but even now; vast reaches of it are pretty much open for story-telling....The City of Lost Names; the Dairly Penisula; The ruins of Takar; pretty much ALL of Nordmaar; etc., etc.

    (Edit: I agree with Chuck's above post whole-heartedly!)

    Just my two cents...
    Apart from one or two pages in DL14 (in particular the table with all the nations in Ansalon, their alignment, and the export products,) in the 1e era we don't get any material to expand the setting beyond the War. That same information (together with broken race and class options) was reprised in DLA. Compare that and DLA with the Grey Box Forgotten Realms or the Greyhawk Boxed set (or even the Greyhawk folio!)
    Until 3e, the most "in depth" product Dragonlance had was the 2e Tales of the Lance boxed set. But TotL is not only a subpar product, it simply does not have the same descriptive and defining power of the other two settings.

    The only setting which could compete with these two in terms of completeness and depth is Taladas, but one could argue whether it can be really called Dragonlance at all, since the eponymous weapon does not even appear, and many of the Dragonlance tropes are simply turned over their heads.

    The 3e Dragonlance Campaign Setting was a fair product, but just compare it with the Forgotten Realms hardback...which is "only" orders of magnitude better. A few weeks ago I bought two 3e supplements, Lords of Darkness and the Silver Marches. Both are nothing short of excellent. I wish we had had such products for Dragonlance.

    We had to wait MWP to have some Dragonlance love; apparently they had their hands tied, so we didn't get anything really "new." With the possible exceptions of their War of the Lance and Legends of the Twins books, which are two of the best D&D books ever; but we had to wait almost 20 years to get them!

    In short: there MUST be a reason why TSR first and WotC later did not invest in Dragonlance more.
    Last edited by Turambar; 02-05-2012 at 10:22 AM.
    It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you [...] YOU ARE CREATOR AND FINAL ARBITER.
    E. G. Gygax, Dungeon Masters Guide, 1979.

  8. #78
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    1,147

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Turambar View Post
    In short: there MUST be a reason why TSR first and WotC later did not invest in Dragonlance more.
    It's been documented that TSR had no confidence in DL's long-term sustainability as a game line. The Realms were picked up because TSR wanted something on hand for when DL began to flag, and Dark Sun was launched for a similar reason. (Sources: "Realms of Valor" afterword, Thirty Years of Adventure, sidebars in DRAGON #315)
    Last edited by Matthew L. Martin; 02-05-2012 at 09:19 PM.
    Matthew L. Martin, Chronicler of the Martinian Canon, the Anti-Canon, Desolate Krynn and numerous other 'wrong' versions of Krynn.

  9. #79
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Edmonton, Alberta
    Posts
    1,395

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by maxvale View Post
    I guess I'm unusual in that I don't see that a war whose outcome you already know isn't worth setting adventures in or around. Again; I go back to the Rebellion against the Empire example from Star Wars.....sure; we KNOW Luke, Han, etc. are going to blow up 2 Death Stars; flee from the Empire at Hoth and defeat the Emperor and Vader at Endor. This doesn't mean that there aren't untold numbers of great campaign ideas set during this conflict.
    I was actually just thinking about invoking Star Wars as an analogue.

    They've made so many Star Wars RPGs and novels and comics after the original trilogy. And all have been okay at best, with some novels being better than others but few stories being as dramatic.
    The problem being, for the longest time, they're dealing with the imperial remnant. The bad guys they've already beaten! There's just less drama and they have to keep adding new threats and problems that seem tacked on or just aren't as scary or memorable as the former villains. And they have to keep rotating through crisises so the world seems overly dramatic and ever- changing with no time for the status quo to really cement.

    More keeps on being added but, since it's not in the initial source material, it will always feel secondary and superfluous.
    And really, part of you just wished for a "happily ever after" for your favorite characters so it's uncomfortable having horrible ends happen to everyone and the heroes replaced by just less memorable and interesting protagonists.

  10. #80
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    East Alton, IL
    Posts
    3,496

    Default

    The "the land area too small" argument has to be the worst one out there. If you think it's too small, the easiest option I can think of is to just increase the scale on the map! If it says that 1"=5 miles on a map, just multiply it by 2 or 5 or whatever and BAM! Huge area with lots of empty space to put interesting things.

    By doing this, if a couple towns were 3 miles apart and there wasn't enough room to throw a ruined tower or dungeon between them, now there could be 15 miles between them, leaving plenty of room for adventure sites between.
    Friendly Nexus Rules Editor

    Send me some rules so I can edit and post them!!

+ Reply to Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts