Astinus *is* Gilean

[Sothus]

I believe Astinus *is* Gilean, but not in the way everyone thinks.

Take the dust off from the ancient Tales of the Lance and look the the history of the world. Now turn to the pages that explain the arrival of the gods. You'll find that Gilean was brought forth from the future, he was a mortal chosen to be a god.

And Astinus desappeared... and he could *deserve* becoming Gilean...

By the way, with this I'm also implying that I prefer the older myth of creation, not the one introduced in DoSF (one of the many reasons I never really liked that book)

[freedjr]

Good thought. My only comments:

1. His hourglass constellation is in the sky. When Paladine and Takhisis are walking Krynn, their stars disappear.

2. It would seem odd that Gilean/Astinus would get to stay on Krynn 24/7, when Paladine and Takhisis don't (unless maybe Pally just doesn't want to).

But you could very well be right.

[Serena DarkMyst]

I prefer all the creation myths....They all show that no race or myth has got it quite right just yet

[Sothus]

1. His hourglass constellation is in the sky. When Paladine and Takhisis are walking Krynn, their stars disappear.
2. It would seem odd that Gilean/Astinus would get to stay on Krynn 24/7, when Paladine and Takhisis don't (unless maybe Pally just doesn't want to).

Yes, but Astinus is *still* not Gilean... he will be send to the past from after the Summer of Chaos to the Age of Starbirth to become a god...
(according to my theory, of course)

[Valharic]

[QUOTE=freedjr]

1. His hourglass constellation is in the sky. When Paladine and Takhisis are walking Krynn, their stars disappear.QUOTE]

That has no bearing on it, as Astinus wasn't a god yet when they walked the land. Gilean never left his godly realm. Therefore his constellation would never have left. That's the paradox of it all.

The theory of Gilean is the future self of Astinus is actually a known theory. I believe the first time I saw it was when Cam put it out there on the WotC boards a while back. Here's a link to it.

Link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114888&perpage=30&highlight=astinus&pagenumber=1)

[Arek Brimstone]

1. [Gilean's] hourglass constellation is in the sky.Gilean's constellation was a book (the Tobril, most likely). Raistlin's was the Houglass.

[Darth Fistandantilus]

According to the short story "The Traveling Players of Gilean" by Margaret Weis and Aron Eisenberg in the Best of Tales - Gilean had three children. One, a daughter by the name of Lunitari who is a goddess of magic. The other two were sons by the names of Astinus and Sebastius. Both these sons chronicle history in their own ways.

[Sothus]

[QUOTE=freedjr]
The theory of Gilean is the future self of Astinus is actually a known theory. I believe the first time I saw it was when Cam put it out there on the WotC boards a while back. Here's a link to it. Link (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=114888&perpage=30&highlight=astinus&pagenumber=1)
Heh, I'd never been to the Wizard's forum, so I didn't know...

[The Grimace]

One problem with your theory. You said that Gilean was a mortal brought from the future...Astinus isn't mortal, he's been around since the beginning of Krynn.

[Sothus]

One problem with your theory. You said that Gilean was a mortal brought from the future...Astinus isn't mortal, he's been around since the beginning of Krynn.
No one knows what Astinus was... and I had already though about that.
I believe that the High God made a man into what Astinus is to prepare him for what he'd become (GIlean). So, as Obi Wan would say if you were sitting in a twig in Dagobag, he was a mortal... in a sense.

[The Grimace]

Ah, tricky. I kind of see it now. Good Star Wars reference by the way. :)

[Lauralan]

Forgive my slowness, but I'm not sure if I follow this theory. If Astinus becomes Gilean at the end of the world, and then goes back in time to serve as a god from the start, then who served as the god of neutrality before then? Was there not any neutral god? Or am I way off?

[NiTakhisis]

Gilean's constellation was a book (the Tobril, most likely). Raistlin's was the Houglass.
Thank you for pointing that out Arek! You beat me to it.

I have always felt that Astinus was Gilean. Personally, I haven't found any facts that definitively point to yes or no. Although the point brought up about his constellation always being in the sky is a good one...

[Vincent]

There seems to be conflicting stories about Astinus. Whos to say which is right? Like was said the Players of Gilean book it says he is Gilean's son. Some books before seem to strongly suggest that he is an avatar of Gilean, such as Annotated Legends, where Tracy Hickman just about comes out an says it in one of the annotations.

I guess I'll go with him being Gilean's son since Players of Gilean is the newest. BTW, I forget, what does the campain setting say?

[Sothus]

Forgive my slowness, but I'm not sure if I follow this theory. If Astinus becomes Gilean at the end of the world, and then goes back in time to serve as a god from the start, then who served as the god of neutrality before then? Was there not any neutral god? Or am I way off?
According to the *original* myth of creation, when both Paladine and Takhisis were brought to Krynn, a human was brought forth from the future to be the ruler or Neutrality and hold the Tobril (that is, Gilean.)
I'm theorising that this mortal was pulled to the past by the High God right after the end of the Chaos War. And this mortal was Astinus...

[Arek Brimstone]

According to the *original* myth of creationWouldn't that technically be creation myth number two? I'd have to double check...since it's been a while, but I thought that DLA and TotL had differing Age of Starbirth (or Twilight...whatever it's called these days) stories.

For some reason I thought that DLA was one, then TotL was two, then DKoK was the third creation (which matched closely with TotL) then the DoSF introduced a 4th creation myth.

To which, SAGA tried to go back to the TotL story with the DoSF as a side note...and now the DLCS has tried to combine all of them. I personally liked some of the aspects of DoaVM...I don't think all of it fit with DL exactly...but a lot of it would have helped explain the nature of Chaos a little better...since that's still really up in the air.

It's such a mess...but I think the creation myth discrepencies areon purpose...or at the very least, fine by me.

[Sothus]

Wouldn't that technically be creation myth number two? I'd have to double check...since it's been a while, but I thought that DLA and TotL had differing Age of Starbirth (or Twilight...whatever it's called these days) stories.

Well, I don't own DLA, so I cannot say... :(

[Serena DarkMyst]

Well....DLA predates TotL so...it would be the original there

[Sothus]

Well....DLA predates TotL so...it would be the original there
Yes, I know... but as I don't own that book I cannot say anything about this subject...
In fact, I thought that DLA had the same version TotL has... :confused:

[Serena DarkMyst]

:p You should be used to the contradictions in every DL product down the line by now :p

[Valharic]

I would use both stories in the game. Having different variations to creation provides good regional beliefs. Maybe the knights believe in the DLA an the Barabrians in the TotL. There are a lot of contradictions out there for DL. Just use them to your advantage and make them different philosophies for different people. :)

[Willim]

I would have to go with Astinus as a son of Gilean, or at the very least, possibly an early favored mortal of the gods.

The reason I say this is because I also beleive that the Herald is Astinus. If that was the case then Astinus could not have been pulled from the future and "made" a god.

[Carteeg_Struve]

I would have to go with Astinus as a son of Gilean, or at the very least, possibly an early favored mortal of the gods.

The reason I say this is because I also beleive that the Herald is Astinus. If that was the case then Astinus could not have been pulled from the future and "made" a god.

I go with the idea that both Astinus and Sebastius were both avatars of Gilean, but Gilean had given them both free-will (thus making them his children in a strong sense). Since they were their own people, then they weren't yanked out of Krynn after the Chaos War like all of the other gods.

As for the High God pulling a mortal from the future. I also don't see it being Astinus since he was not really a mortal in the normal sense of the word. Maybe it was/is/will-be someone else. Another possibility is that we'll never know, but not just because it is a mystery the writers wish to keep going, but also because it might be that the mortal was pulled from the original future that existed prior to Takhisis' borrowing of Krynn (The other gods must had dropped it. They should be more careful in the future. ). And just because he is from a future that no longer happens, it doesn't mean he still isn't from there. Right? :) :confused: :)

*sigh* Dang time travel.....

[Willim]

"I hate alternate realities. They make for messy bookkeeping."
--Squishydodo of the Black Op Elves, from Sluggy Freelance (http://www.sluggy.com)

[Sothus]

I
As for the High God pulling a mortal from the future. I also don't see it being Astinus since he was not really a mortal in the normal sense of the word. Maybe it was/is/will-be someone else. Another possibility is that we'll never know, but not just because it is a mystery the writers wish to keep going, but also because it might be that the mortal was pulled from the original future that existed prior to Takhisis' borrowing of Krynn (The other gods must had dropped it. They should be more careful in the future. ). And just because he is from a future that no longer happens, it doesn't mean he still isn't from there. Right? :) :confused: :)
*sigh* Dang time travel.....
He *cnnot* be from the future that should have been, because as it has note been the High God could have not grabbed him from there because it *has not* been, so he must have got that mortal *before* Takhisis steals the world, otherwise Gilean would *not* exist because the future that *should* have been *has not* been...

Do you like Terminator??? ;D

[dark_demon_dalamar]

i had an idea of what was happening then i read that post and it all fluttered out of my head as i tried to dicpher said post and yes i like the Terminator[2 is the best]

[ReyBrujo]

I would accept the explanation that Astinus was a monk of Gilean who was given the opportunity of living as long as he continued recording. If he were Gilean himself, why he would need Raistlin's gift? He could very well ask Zivilyn directly.

A question (I haven't read any book AFTER War of Souls timeline speaking): Does Astinus return with the gods?

[dark_demon_dalamar]

Yuppers.....[damn the min]

[Sothus]

i had an idea of what was happening then i read that post and it all fluttered out of my head as i tried to dicpher said post and yes i like the Terminator[2 is the best]
What I mean is that the High God must have taken Gilean from *before* Dragons of Summer Flame because...

Let's suppose he took him from *after*:
- The High God brings Gilean forth, Gilean is "born"
- Takhisis steals the world
- In the past the High tries to bring the mortal back... but there's not the time!!! So he cannot be brought back. So Gilean isn't brought back. So he doesn't exist.
- But Gilean *does* exist, so he *could* have been brought back. So he must be from *before* the stealing of the world.

Is it clear, now... ;)
And do you understand now my reference to Terminator? ;)

[Sera AISIELE]

Lol now I'm consused, well not exactly.

What are those acronyms? DLA, etc.? Where can I get infos?

I follow the story about Gilean who used to be a mortal. Then I met this friend who said otherwise, then I read the books and found hmm insteresting, they rewrote the history of Krynn.

Probably I can get a better understanding with those acronyms/books you guys mentioned?

I just wish they will stop rewriting history ;p

[Sothus]

Lol now I'm consused, well not exactly.
What are those acronyms? DLA, etc.? Where can I get infos?

DLA -> DragonLance Adventures. It's an ooooooooooolllllllddddddd book, the first Dragonlance Campaign Setting ever published, it's out of print since a looooooooong time ago...
[/QUOTE]


I follow the story about Gilean who used to be a mortal. Then I met this friend who said otherwise, then I read the books and found hmm insteresting, they rewrote the history of Krynn.

There's a history of Krynn in DLA, another in TotL (Tales of the Lance, the second "DL Campaign Setting", this one is mostly an expansion of the first, for what I've seen... I don't own DLA, but yesterday I was lended it...), a third in DoSF (Dragons of Summer Flame) and a fourth in DoaVM (Dragons of a Vanished Moon.) As I begun with TotL, the *real* one for me is the one in there... but it's only due to sentimentalism.


Probably I can get a better understanding with those acronyms/books you guys mentioned?
In this post you have some examples... if you need more just ask! ;)


I just wish they will stop rewriting history ;p
So do I!!!! :eek:

[Sera AISIELE]

Ohh, no wonder I'm not familiar with DLA, I do not know about it or maybe not yet born if it's that's ooooooooollllllllddddddddd :p

Hmm... I'll buy those books. DoSF and DotVM, :eek: omg! They are really that important! crap, I only read a summary after I read WoS, I skipped it all because I don't 5th Age pre-WoS.

*will go buy the books at my next salary*

hmm I wish someone has a PDF or whatever of DLA hehe, though I doubt someone will sell their printed copy ;)

[person with the stuff]

Here's my theroy:
As a human mortal (in the late age of starbirth or early age of dreams), Astinus was aproached in a dream by gilean. He offered Astinus everlasting life, and in return Astinus was to record all history. And so Astinus was like "Sure, what the hell!". Skip ahead to just before the gods left krynn in the chaos war, Astinus was Confronted by the highgod and asked to become the god of nuetrality in the past, so Astinus was like "Sure what the hell!", and went to the past and adopted the name Gilean. So then he aproached Astinus (his mortal self) in a dream and made him an offer: eternal life to become an eternal historian, and he was like "Sure, what the hell!"...

And that is how i see it.

[Darth Fistandantilus]

This is all assuming the Choas War was supposed to happen. I could be wrong but I'm under the impression, with the nature of the Grey Gem and the god Chaos, keeping in mind Tas's stories about an altered future, that anything from the beginning of the Chaos War up until the end of the War of Souls was not supposed to happen. Chaos being chaos altered the regular flow of time.

[Morgion]

I believe that Gilean is Astinus from the future (the 1st theory posted on this thread). The reasons for this is because of the Tales of the Lance Boxed Set and the Annotated Legends. I also noticed that in the TotL set that both Gilean and Astinus have the exact same stats such as hp. at 980 if I am remembering correctly. Anyways, there stat entry in every way appears identical if my memory serves me right, except in the Astinus entry, they don't include worshipers, spheres, etc...That's what I go by anyways, the TotL set and that in an annotation in Legends that they say that Astinus is Gilean.

[frankwanderer]

I just wish they will stop rewriting history ;p

*grins* Rewriting history is a prestigious line of work. Historians, journalists, kings and politicians have been doing it in our own world for centuries. ;)

Frank the Wanderer

[dalamar_thedark]

I believe that Gilean is Astinus from the future (the 1st theory posted on this thread). The reasons for this is because of the Tales of the Lance Boxed Set and the Annotated Legends. I also noticed that in the TotL set that both Gilean and Astinus have the exact same stats such as hp. at 980 if I am remembering correctly. Anyways, there stat entry in every way appears identical if my memory serves me right, except in the Astinus entry, they don't include worshipers, spheres, etc...That's what I go by anyways, the TotL set and that in an annotation in Legends that they say that Astinus is Gilean.

and also Gilean had 'the book' in WoS. Supposedly that was one from his alter-ego...?

[Willim]

*grins* Rewriting history is a prestigious line of work. Historians, journalists, kings and politicians have been doing it in our own world for centuries. ;)

Frank the Wanderer

So cynical. Yet so true.

[dark_demon_dalamar]

Astinus is at the very least an avatar of Gilean Tracy Hickman said so on page 2 of the Annonted version of the Legends if not Gilean personified

[dalamar_thedark]

Meh, I thought Astinus WAS Gilean, not just a personification. Interesting.

[Darquewing]

hmm I wish someone has a PDF or whatever of DLA hehe, though I doubt someone will sell their printed copy ;)


You can find many of the older versions of DragonLance material at RPGNow.com in PDF format. I don't know if they have DLA, but it might be worth a try if you really want some of the older material.

Just as a plug though, please keep buying new stuff so my addiction never goes unsated :)