Sorcery and Misticism: SAGA vs 3E

[Sothus]

In the SAGA system, Misticism affected living (and unliving) beings, Sorcery objects, energy...
It's clear that in DL 3E things don't work this way.

Anybody knows why DL 3E wasn't made to keep on the *original* concept of Sorcery and Misticysm?

[talinthas]

simple answer- cause WotC wanted the sorceror to stay the same as the one in the core PHB. the folks in the Whitestone council had a very different version planned for the original fan version, before DL was revived.

In world answer- when tak was defeated, the forces of chaos that powered mysticism and sorc were subtly mutated so as to limit them in some ways (ie, no more custom spells) and unlock them in others (the living/dead limits).

[WildKnight]

simple answer- cause WotC wanted the sorceror to stay the same as the one in the core PHB. the folks in the Whitestone council had a very different version planned for the original fan version, before DL was revived.

In world answer- when tak was defeated, the forces of chaos that powered mysticism and sorc were subtly mutated so as to limit them in some ways (ie, no more custom spells) and unlock them in others (the living/dead limits).

I would say Talinthas is probably right. As to the "story" answer... heh, any excuse is as good as the next.

[Sothus]

In world answer- when tak was defeated, the forces of chaos that powered mysticism and sorc were subtly mutated so as to limit them in some ways (ie, no more custom spells) and unlock them in others (the living/dead limits).
But... no powers of chaos power sorecery and mysticism!!
When I reach home I'll post my mini-essay about magic... It'll be another thread, so stay tuned!

[Cam Banks]

But... no powers of chaos power sorecery and mysticism!!
When I reach home I'll post my mini-essay about magic... It'll be another thread, so stay tuned!

Chaos is the reason ambient or wild magic is available to mortal races, therefore one could say that Chaos powers sorcery and mysticism. It certainly acts as a catalyst of some kind, which is why the Orders of High Sorcery are so concerned about it.

Cheers,
Cam

[Sothus]

Chaos is the reason ambient or wild magic is available to mortal races, therefore one could say that Chaos powers sorcery and mysticism. It certainly acts as a catalyst of some kind, which is why the Orders of High Sorcery are so concerned about it.
No, no, it ain't right (AFAIK)
Sorcery and Mysticism are based upon the primordial magic of Krynn. That magic predate even the Graygem!
As I said, when I return home I'll post my mini-essay, in there I cite pages, books... from where I took the information.

[SweetMeats]

No, no, it ain't right (AFAIK)
Sorcery and Mysticism are based upon the primordial magic of Krynn. That magic predate even the Graygem!
As I said, when I return home I'll post my mini-essay, in there I cite pages, books... from where I took the information.

The primoridal magic of Krynn is Chaos. Don't forget, the world was made from Chaos himself, and then Reorx made the mistake of trapping Chaos in the Greygem.

[WildKnight]

No, no, it ain't right (AFAIK)
Sorcery and Mysticism are based upon the primordial magic of Krynn. That magic predate even the Graygem!
As I said, when I return home I'll post my mini-essay, in there I cite pages, books... from where I took the information.


Read Wizards Conclave.

[Sothus]

The primoridal magic of Krynn is Chaos. Don't forget, the world was made from Chaos himself, and then Reorx made the mistake of trapping Chaos in the Greygem.
Good point... I'll review my sources and maybe change my mini-essay when I post it...

[Sothus]

Read Wizards Conclave.
I disliked that book so much that I don't even remember that it says anithing about magic itself... what does it say?

[Cam Banks]

No, no, it ain't right (AFAIK)
Sorcery and Mysticism are based upon the primordial magic of Krynn. That magic predate even the Graygem!

No, it is right. Primal magic does indeed predate the Graygem, yet before the Graygem was created and released upon Krynn none of the mortal races (elves, ogres or humans) could use it. The presence of the energies of Chaos enabled those races and those descended from them (such as kender and dwarves) to cast spells. This led to the elven sorcerers overextending their control over the wild magic in battle against the dragons in the Second Dragon War, which led to a hundred years of aberrant magical storms and other chaotic disasters. The gods of magic took aside three sorcerers, taught them High Sorcery, and asked them to spread this knowledge, allowing the powers of Chaos to eventually wane. The other gods had also established clerics by this point, so that mysticism was no longer needed either.

With the release of Chaos from the Graygem again by the Irda, those energies once again flooded the world. This made wild magic available once again, and quite timely for Takhisis who needed mortals to be using magic for her army of souls to leech and provide to her as additional power. By the time the gods had found the stolen Krynn, wild magic was once more prevalent.

So, pre-Gryagem = no spellcasters at all (apart from dragons, fey, etc)
Post-Graygem, pre-2nd Dragon War = sorcerers and mystics
Post-2nd Dragon War = Wizards and clerics, with some sorcerers and mystics rapidly losing power
Post-Chaos War, pre-War of Souls = sorcerers and mystics
Post-War of Souls = wizards, sorcerers, mystics and clerics

Cheers,
Cam

[WildKnight]

I disliked that book so much that I don't even remember that it says anithing about magic itself... what does it say?

Well, it makes it quite obvious that Sorcery is a bad thing in the world of Krynn, for one thing.

[Sothus]

Well, it makes it quite obvious that Sorcery is a bad thing in the world of Krynn, for one thing.
Yes, that I remember ;)
But I was asking if that book has something relevant to the subject :p

[Sothus]

Cam, I'm at work right now so I don't have all the data I need. But wait a couple of hours for me to return home and I'll post my "mini-essay". Then you'll see what I mean...
(I'm taurus with ascendant taurus, also... I can be quite hardheaded!! ;) )

[WildKnight]

Yes, that I remember ;)
But I was asking if that book has something relevant to the subject :p

Well, I think its pretty relevant that Sorcerery has been shown to be a force for evil, given that its most likely a direct result of the influence of Chaos over Sorcery and Mysticism.

Relevence, I guess, is in the eye of the beholder.

[Cam Banks]

Cam, I'm at work right now so I don't have all the data I need. But wait a couple of hours for me to return home and I'll post my "mini-essay". Then you'll see what I mean...

I look forward to seeing it, but you should be aware that not all of the older sources are still accurate with some of the revisions and consolidations that have been done as of the 3rd edition update and the War of Souls release. I'm working on current continuity material, which is all that I do work with. :)

Cheers,
Cam

[Sothus]

I look forward to seeing it, but you should be aware that not all of the older sources are still accurate with some of the revisions and consolidations that have been done as of the 3rd edition update and the War of Souls release. I'm working on current continuity material, which is all that I do work with. :)

The sources I used were Tales of the Lance (well, Player's Guide to the Dragonlance, in fact, as I have the TotL in spanish and I couldn't quote pages) and the Book of the Fifth Age.

[Cam Banks]

The sources I used were Tales of the Lance (well, Player's Guide to the Dragonlance, in fact, as I have the TotL in spanish and I couldn't quote pages) and the Book of the Fifth Age.

Right. A lot of the information in those sources is now outdated - especially given that the events in the War of Souls trilogy and the revised timeline and cosmology presented in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting have added a new dimension to the truth behind sorcery and mysticism.

Cheers,
Cam

[Sothus]

Right. A lot of the information in those sources is now outdated - especially given that the events in the War of Souls trilogy and the revised timeline and cosmology presented in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting have added a new dimension to the truth behind sorcery and mysticism.

One of the things I've always *hated* from DoSF is the change in the mytho of creation...
I've *always* prefered the old one!!!
(20 minutes to go home!!!! :D )

[Sothus]

Ok, I'm home now... I'm going to start a new thread with this... It'll take a bit, the mini-essay was originally written in my mother language (catalan) so I'll have to translate...
In this new thread (The Origins of Magic") I'll copy the posts we have already had about the subject...

[Serena DarkMyst]

Its interesting to see...but I knew from the outset of the 5th Age boxed set that by answering some of the questions that lay within it like the WoS trilogy did, that some things that we all took as fact were going to change...Which is a natural part of the growth of a story based setting.

[WildKnight]

Its interesting to see...but I knew from the outset of the 5th Age boxed set that by answering some of the questions that lay within it like the WoS trilogy did, that some things that we all took as fact were going to change...Which is a natural part of the growth of a story based setting.

What he said.

Personally I think War of Souls was a godsend... I know of at least a dozen Dragonlance Fans who had completely given up on the setting before Weis & Hickmans triumphant return with the War of Souls Trilogy.

[Serena DarkMyst]

Im just glad that alot of those fans had the good sense to stick around knowing that the story was going somewhere.

[Dragonhelm]

In the SAGA system, Misticism affected living (and unliving) beings, Sorcery objects, energy...
It's clear that in DL 3E things don't work this way.

Anybody knows why DL 3E wasn't made to keep on the *original* concept of Sorcery and Misticysm?

You might find this of interest, then.

Paths of Magic (http://www.dl3e.com/fan/rules/12194.aspx)

[WildKnight]

Im just glad that alot of those fans had the good sense to stick around knowing that the story was going somewhere.

Heh. No, we didnt stick around. The entire group of guys that I played DLance with (and we had a book club, of sorts, as well), stopped reading in disgust after Dragons of Summer Flame (which I still haven't read). We recently got back together and got interested in Dragonlance again when, after buying the DLCS, I read the War of Souls Trilogy and told them it was worth looking into.

I wont identify them, but one or two of my old DLance buddies lurk around the posting board from time to time. You know who you are.

[Sothus]

You might find this of interest, then.
Paths of Magic (http://www.dl3e.com/fan/rules/12194.aspx)
Thanks... I'll print it out and read it...

[talinthas]

one thing to remember about WC is that the book is written with wizard bias.
Amber and Ashes mentions sorcery twice- the first (and most relevant) time, it says that sorcery is playfully entering the scene.

I don't think Sorc/mysticism is EVIL or BAD, so much as the gods just don't know what to do about it.

WC really doesnt hold much weight as far as this subject goes. It's a great description of how Wizards feel, but certainly not good at explaining what the real relationship is.
i look at it like a biased news report.

[Sothus]

I don't think Sorc/mysticism is EVIL or BAD, so much as the gods just don't know what to do about it.
No, sorcery (onor misticysm) is bad per se. It's in the minds of the gods of magic, and so their followers, where it is bad.
And they'll act according to that.

[WildKnight]

No, sorcery (onor misticysm) is bad per se. It's in the minds of the gods of magic, and so their followers, where it is bad.
And they'll act according to that.

Im not so certain that will turn out to be the case. It certainly seems as if Sorcery and Mysticism will be playing a more villainous role in the future. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong... Ive got nothing in particular invested in it either way, as I dont dislike Sorcerers or Msytics from a gamer standpoint. But thats the impression I'm getting.

Chaos was bad. The things he spawned have universally turned out to be bad. Sorcery and Mysticism look to be going the same way.

[Sothus]

Im not so certain that will turn out to be the case. It certainly seems as if Sorcery and Mysticism will be playing a more villainous role in the future. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong... Ive got nothing in particular invested in it either way, as I dont dislike Sorcerers or Msytics from a gamer standpoint. But thats the impression I'm getting.

Chaos was bad. The things he spawned have universally turned out to be bad. Sorcery and Mysticism look to be going the same way.
I believe that sorcery or mysticism, like a handgun, is not evil per se. What's evil or not is the use you make of it...
And about being created by Chaos... take a look at this thread:
http://www.dragonlanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61
(thead that by chance, I begun... :) )

[Madrigal of the Ogre]

I know of at least a dozen Dragonlance Fans who had completely given up on the setting before Weis & Hickmans triumphant return with the War of Souls Trilogy.Dozen plus one. :)

I have to agree. Until Weis & Hickman's return, I had no interest in working with the setting. War of Souls (IMO) began a "return" to a setting that is both enjoyable to read about (in novels) and a pleasure to game in (with good supplements coming from SovPress). I think SAGA really damaged Dragonlance's reputation as a viable game world. The rule-set change to SAGA held no interest for me (or any of my players, all die-hard D&Ders) and I left it for a return to Greyhawk. With War of Souls cementing Dragonlance back in core rules D&D (along with Jamie's DLCS) all of my players and myself returned to the Dragonlance setting as a viable option for game play.

Trilogies like Chris Pierson's blow me away -- with their detail and honest effort to maintain the spirit of the Dragonlance setting -- and I'm looking forward to more high quality detailed game material from SovPress for my D&D games.

[Madrigal of the Ogre]

So, pre-Gryagem = no spellcasters at all (apart from dragons, fey, etc)
Post-Graygem, pre-2nd Dragon War = sorcerers and mystics
Post-2nd Dragon War = Wizards and clerics, with some sorcerers and mystics rapidly losing power
Post-Chaos War, pre-War of Souls = sorcerers and mystics
Post-War of Souls = wizards, sorcerers, mystics and clerics
Hey! That helps a LOT Cam! Thanks!

I take it this is all made even more clear in the Towers of High Sorcery book?

[snifferdoo]

Hey! That helps a LOT Cam! Thanks!

I take it this is all made even more clear in the Towers of High Sorcery book?


More clear than 5 lines of text? Heh, the book wouldn't be much of a read then. ;)

[Matthew L. Martin]

Dozen plus one. :)



And one leaves, so you're down to a dozen again. :)

It was the Fifth Age and the SAGA System that rekindled my interest in DL after I drifted out in 1991, and while I think that where the setting's going is probably best for the majority of fans, it's not really to my tastes.

And I prefer the DoaVM Appendix explanation of elder magic to the DLCS one, but I'm biased. :)

[Sothus]

I *never* left DragonLance...

In fact I thanked a lot the coming of the 5th age. As I have stated in other threads, I am tired of the War of the Lance, it seemed that the setting was becoming stagnant repeating the same subject all over again. But then came DoSF (wich it is said it was thought to end the setting) and the Fiftih Age afterwards. I must say that I never disliked SAGA (I like simple rules), but what I liked most was the coming of new ideas into the setting...

[WildKnight]

I *never* left DragonLance...

In fact I thanked a lot the coming of the 5th age. As I have stated in other threads, I am tired of the War of the Lance, it seemed that the setting was becoming stagnant repeating the same subject all over again. But then came DoSF (wich it is said it was thought to end the setting) and the Fiftih Age afterwards. I must say that I never disliked SAGA (I like simple rules), but what I liked most was the coming of new ideas into the setting...

The SAGA rules weren't bad at all. It was the setting which seemed pointless and flavorless to me.

[Kendermage]

I think that perhaps the only thing I didn't like about SAGA rules was the way it unfairly limited certain races. Minotaurs were restricted to codes of "C" or less in Reason and Spirit ensuring that there were no minotaur sorcerers or mystics, when in the previous age there were Wizards and Clerics. I never did reconcile with forcing all members of a certain race to have a minimum or maximum ability score. I much prefer the D&D method of granting bonuses to certain abilities and a penalty to others. Of course this all harkens back to one of my other posts about cookie cutter characters.

[Dragonhelm]

I think that perhaps the only thing I didn't like about SAGA rules was the way it unfairly limited certain races. Minotaurs were restricted to codes of "C" or less in Reason and Spirit ensuring that there were no minotaur sorcerers or mystics, when in the previous age there were Wizards and Clerics. I never did reconcile with forcing all members of a certain race to have a minimum or maximum ability score. I much prefer the D&D method of granting bonuses to certain abilities and a penalty to others. Of course this all harkens back to one of my other posts about cookie cutter characters.

One of the reasons I like 3rd edition and d20 in general so much is the modularity of the system.

To get back on topic some, we'll use sorcery and mysticism as an example. By the SAGA model, sorcery and mysticism had certain themes as well as certain limitations. Themes are a good thing, in that they help to shape the magic of a setting.

Yet themes also must work with the rules. With the rules switch back to a D&D system, we have to look at ambient magic through the "lens" of 3e, which already has an existing system of magic rules. A new set of rules could easily encompass a new rulebook (much like the psionics rules do). So the idea in the 3e mindset is to go with a unified magic rules system.

Ah, but what about those themes?

Enter 3e's modularity. With 3e, you can pick and choose what sorts of spells, feats, etc. you wish to use with your character. My Paths of Magic article gives spell lists for one to replicate the feel of the realms of sorcery or spheres of mysticism. There's some feats in there that add to this, as well as others that help with the living/non-living themes. Metamagic feats are great to help replicate spellshaping.

Modularity also works in the other way as well. Let's say that you have a player who doesn't want to follow the themes of the SAGA magic system. Maybe he wants more of a PHB-style sorcerer, or has some other theme in mind. With 3e's modularity, he can create any style of sorcerer he wants.

What we have, then is a good compromise. You have modularity enough to create any style of sorcerer or mystic that you want. Personally, I think it's the best sort of compromise possible. :)

[Sothus]

Enter 3e's modularity. With 3e, you can pick and choose what sorts of spells, feats, etc. you wish to use with your character. My Paths of Magic article gives spell lists for one to replicate the feel of the realms of sorcery or spheres of mysticism. There's some feats in there that add to this, as well as others that help with the living/non-living themes. Metamagic feats are great to help replicate spellshaping.


Today I have read your Paths of Magic... correct me if I'm wrong... the Paths are spells the sorcerer/mystic will usually use, but he can use any spell from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Is it so? Because if it is, it still isn't the old feel, because a sorcerer can cast Polymorph spells, which should be a Mystic spell.

By the time of 3.0 I begun a compilation of spells (I included PHB, Defenders, Tome and Bolood... I still hadn't the rest of books) and tryied to divide them all between Sorcerer/Mystic/Druid/Ranger, hell, I even banned certain spells because required Divine intervention, and as WoS still hadn't happened...
Well, the case is that I left it due to the difficulty balancing all these classes... if someone wants to pick it up from where I left, just ask me and I'll send the file. Requires Excel 2000, as there are dynamic tables and graphics...

[Dragonhelm]

Today I have read your Paths of Magic... correct me if I'm wrong... the Paths are spells the sorcerer/mystic will usually use, but he can use any spell from the Wizard/Sorcerer list. Is it so? Because if it is, it still isn't the old feel, because a sorcerer can cast Polymorph spells, which should be a Mystic spell.


Only if he chooses those spells. You are right that a character can follow only one spell path (example) and still use the wizard/sorcerer list for sorcerers or the cleric list for mystics. At the same time, they can choose spells only from the spell paths. That's the nice part about it - a person can play the type of sorcerer they want.

I'm not claiming that my spell path article is a solution for those who want to maintain the SAGA feel. The only way you're going to really have the SAGA feel for magic is to play SAGA. If you want to maintain some of the feel and themes, yet have it be D&D, then that's where the spell path article comes into play. Players, then, can choose just how much or how little to utilize.

[Sallis the Silver Blaze]

My theory as to why sorcery could only affect inorganic material and mysticism could only affect living or nonliving material is because Takhisis taught it that way. She knew that if she regimented the types of magic, more people would learn to use magic. If she taught people to use the magic to it's fullest, less sorcerors and mystics would be present in the world, and they would be inherently weaker since they would be learning two things at once. So, in order to make the people progress in their specific spell paths and thus become more powerful, she didn't teach the sorcs to affect organic material and mystics to affect inorganic.

In in-game terms, Takhisis knew that a 20th level Sorceror or Mystic is more powerful than a 10 Sorceror/ 10 Mystic.

[Sothus]

The SAGA rules weren't bad at all.
I know a looooooooooooooooooooooooooooot of people who would disagree with you... but I only saw two main flaws to it:
- Players choosing cards. It induced to a lot of powergaming.
- The Narrator had too may calculus to do, so it could be slow.

And a lot of players toldme that they didn't like the fact that they attacked and avoided attacks. It implyied that they could fail but their enemies no. And in a sense, they were right...

It was the setting which seemed pointless and flavorless to me.
Yes, I agree that it needed a bit more work... but my point was always the same, and the same that I have stated quite a lot of times in this forums: At last we moved on out of that darn war... ;)

[Sothus]

My theory as to why sorcery could only affect inorganic material and mysticism could only affect living or nonliving material is because Takhisis taught it that way. She knew that if she regimented the types of magic, more people would learn to use magic. If she taught people to use the magic to it's fullest, less sorcerors and mystics would be present in the world, and they would be inherently weaker since they would be learning two things at once. So, in order to make the people progress in their specific spell paths and thus become more powerful, she didn't teach the sorcs to affect organic material and mystics to affect inorganic.

In in-game terms, Takhisis knew that a 20th level Sorceror or Mystic is more powerful than a 10 Sorceror/ 10 Mystic.
I like the *core* of the idea, but I have some questions...
- Why in the 30 years since DoSF an WoS no one discovered the truth bout what can do, not even the MAster of the Tower, Malystrix... etc, beings with (theorically ;) ) a veeeeery high attunement ot magic and intelligence...
- Wouldn't that implyt (as your game terms seems to imply) that 3E Sor/Mys should learn a level of each class? (I may have understood your point badly...)

[Raistlinrox]

I have a couple points/questions on this topic...I read that mystics get their power from the release of Chaos via ambient magic. Where is it stated in history that mystics existed anywhere before the 5th age? I thought that the "power of the heart" was a brand new thing, never experienced before? That's my view on it anyway...
Point #2-Dragonhelm, you said that with your paths of magic, they can only take one path? Ever? Did I read that correct? If that's the way you intended it, may I ask why? That would be more limiting than the SAGA rules where the caster could have 3...I would suggest maybe that at a ability bonus of +1 (12-13) they recieve one path and at each ODD + they get an additional path. So a CHA of 17 (+3) would get 2 paths and at CHA of 20 (+5) would get another and so on...

[Dragonhelm]

Point #2-Dragonhelm, you said that with your paths of magic, they can only take one path? Ever? Did I read that correct?

No, you can take as many or as few spell paths as you want. My mention of one spell path was to illustrate a point, and was just one possible way to utilize spell paths.

Basically, you're free to take spells from any spell path that you want. They're sort of an alternate spell list for you to use. I'd recommend only taking up to four spell paths, with both the Academy Sorcerer's arcane theses and the sorcerer's spells known in mind. From there, the feats give bonuses for the spells you choose.

So, for example, let's say you choose aeromancy, hydromancy, geomancy, and pyromancy as your spell paths. Rather than following the PHB sorcerer/wizard spell list, you would choose from the spells under those particular spell paths. If, by any chance, you would have spell slots left over under your spells known, you could then revert back to the PHB list for sorcerers and wizards.

So basically, Paths of Magic is an alternate spell list for you to shape your sorcerer, with some added feats that help on your spell paths as well as some other nifty feats. Use as much or as little of it as you want when shaping your sorcerer or mystic.

[Raistlinrox]

Ok, thanks for the clarification!

[Afflicted_Kender]

I suggest modifying the sorcerer class as per Unearthed Arcana; using Intelligence to determine maximum spellcasting level, banning spells that affect living things and requiring a Hybrid Spellcasting feat for spells affecting organic materials, giving bonus metamagic feats and banning familiars.