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Kendermage
08-15-2004, 10:51 PM
I have been thinking for some time that perhaps Sturm might have been Huma reincarnated. I know that distinction officially went to Waylorn Wyvernsbane but I have some reasons for why I think this.

For one thing both of these knights did the same thing in that they almost single handedly restored the honor of the Knighthood. Before the heroic deeds of both these men, the Knighthood was rotting from within. It took the death of each of these knights for the Knighthood to pull their heads out of you know where and start flying right again.

Huma defeated the Dark queen. He owns that distinction. Sturm did a lot of little things. He grew up idolizing the stories of Huma, but subsequent events would show him most of the Knighthood did not.

Both knights were minor members of the order, and each was a Knight of the Crown of fairly low to mid-level. According to 2nd Edition, Huma was an 8th level character. I believe Sturm was around the same level when he died.

I believe Sturm may have been the reincarnation of Huma. He could have been, but since he was actually born as Sturm he might have had no recollection of the things he did as Huma. He may have come back knowing some things, but as he got older he lost those memories. I realize I'm getting a little philosophical here, but just imagine the possibilities.

Ravenmantle
08-15-2004, 11:19 PM
To be honest I think youŽre on the wrong track here...just because they had similar ideals and principles doesnŽt make them one and the same. Huma was a rolemodel for Sturm, and it would seem natural for Sturm to seek to emulate his idol in every way, simply because he felt Huma had done the right things back in the old days...

Ravenmantle

Serena DarkMyst
08-15-2004, 11:56 PM
I wouldnt call Sturm a reincarnated Huma....But I would call him the Huma of his age. What I am waiting for is the Huma of the current Age to show up...as much as I like Gerard oth Mondar...he is no Huma or Sturm....I know that we are going into a whole new era of Dragonlance, but I still want to see an honorable knight character...someone noble that is a true hero....perhaps Galdar will fit that bill....who knows?

Ravenmantle
08-16-2004, 12:00 AM
Hehe Galdar ;) Well we might see a new figure in the Lord of the Rose novel.

Ravenmantle

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 12:17 AM
Ya just never know... ;)

Sothus
08-16-2004, 02:35 AM
I don't see Sturm as a reincarnation of Huma, neither...

And thinking metagaming, I see Huma as a character created ex profeso for Sturm. I'll explain... it seems to me that when the character of Sturm was created the character of Huma was created to give Strum something to strive for, some role model to compare to...

And I'm also fretting for the new Solamnia triology... It will be one of those I'll use to practice my driving plus reading skills! ;)

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 02:37 AM
I swear one of these release dates we wont hear from Sothus again!!!

;)

Thats interesting though Sothus....I agree with you about Huma being created for Sturm to have a role model.....I also think that he is there as sort of Krynn's Arthurian legend.

Sothus
08-16-2004, 04:50 AM
I swear one of these release dates we wont hear from Sothus again!!!

Well, in fact in a month you won't be seeng so much of me...
These boards take me too much time... right now I can post at work because the factory I work in is on vacarions so I am alone in the office and I have time... and the next three weeks I'll be on vacations, so I'll have spare time... but after that... I'll have to reduce my posting :(


Thats interesting though Sothus....I agree with you about Huma being created for Sturm to have a role model.....I also think that he is there as sort of Krynn's Arthurian legend.
Heh, th *whole* knighthood seems to me quite arthurian... the only missing thing is a round table!! ;)

dark_demon_dalamar
08-16-2004, 05:12 AM
i personally have to agree with DarkMyst that Galder would make a nice Huma even if she was kiddin but to the original post i see wat kendermage is saying but agian as other ppl have said the are similiar but similiarity is not to be mistaken with reincarnation!

Darcwulf
08-16-2004, 09:34 AM
Quit insulting Huma! :D

Seriously there is a great deal of difference between the two characters about the only things they had in common were they were both knights who died heroic deaths. Their personalities are vastly different, Sturm was so confident he bordered on arrogance, whilst Huma was plagued by self doubt. Very, very different.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 09:49 AM
Quit insulting Huma! :D

Seriously there is a great deal of difference between the two characters about the only things they had in common were they were both knights who died heroic deaths. Their personalities are vastly different, Sturm was so confident he bordered on arrogance, whilst Huma was plagued by self doubt. Very, very different.

What Sturm have you been reading???? Sturm was full of self-doubt, all the time. Thats probably his defining characteristic. I fail to see how it could have been missed. Yes, Sturm would decide to do something, and then do it. But thats not arrogance. Thats what every warrior should be able to do. The Samurai had a saying "thing said, thing done." Sturm would determine the best course of action he could take based on the Measure, and act. Thats very different from arrogance. His self-doubt, I thought, was very self-evident. Perhaps not. At any rate, I definately think you've characterized Sturm unfairly here, and given Huma too much credit for his human qualities. Somewhere in-between those two ideas is where both of them rest in my mind.

That said, no, I dont think Sturm is Huma reincarnated. I just think that the character of Huma was modeled after the character of Sturm, since Huma was originally created to be the idol of Sturm's hero worship toward the Knights of Solamnia.

Darcwulf
08-16-2004, 09:56 AM
What Sturm have you been reading???? Sturm was full of self-doubt, all the time. Thats probably his defining characteristic. I fail to see how it could have been missed. Yes, Sturm would decide to do something, and then do it. But thats not arrogance. Thats what every warrior should be able to do. The Samurai had a saying "thing said, thing done." Sturm would determine the best course of action he could take based on the Measure, and act. Thats very different from arrogance. His self-doubt, I thought, was very self-evident. Perhaps not. At any rate, I definately think you've characterized Sturm unfairly here, and given Huma too much credit for his human qualities. Somewhere in-between those two ideas is where both of them rest in my mind.


Sturm was a gloryhound. Period.

papytofu
08-16-2004, 10:47 AM
I don't think Sturm was the reincarnation of Huma. We are not in an Indian inspirated world but in Krynn. Reincarnation doesn't exist cause after their travel on Krynn the souls go to the next stage of the life so they can't reincarnate in somebody else.

It's just that Sturm take model on Huma, and he had the capacity to do like Huma. One minute of silence for the memory of these two heroes... :D

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 10:55 AM
Sturm was a gloryhound. Period.

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Obviously you've got some kind of prejudice against the character to the point that you can't discuss it rationally (no worries, I've got the same attitude towards a Star Wars character called Corran Horn), so Im just gonna let this go now.

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 12:14 PM
I can see where both parties involved are right.....yes.....Sturm was extremely heroic.....which made him act the gloryhound....he sought to prove himself, to be the Knight that Huma was in his mind....he was a true knight after all, and what does a true knight desire above all else? A glorious death...

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 12:16 PM
I can see where both parties involved are right.....yes.....Sturm was extremely heroic.....which made him act the gloryhound....he sought to prove himself, to be the Knight that Huma was in his mind....he was a true knight after all, and what does a true knight desire above all else? A glorious death...

No, Im sorry but thats wrong. Sturm didnt care about glory. A gloryhound does what they do solely for the glory of it. Sturm wanted to live up to an ideal. Yes, it was a glorious ideal, but no, he was not in it for the glory.

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 12:18 PM
Yes...he was... Just because he was a noble hero didnt mean he didnt want the glory for himself either. Im sure that he had visions of being remembered in song.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 12:20 PM
Yes...he was... Just because he was a noble hero didnt mean he didnt want the glory for himself either. Im sure that he had visions of being remembered in song.

You're sure of it because...? Nothing in the books seems to indicate that was the case. Sturm was, in respect to his own heroism at any rate, rather humble. Or, how about this. Find a reference in the novels to Sturm dreaming of glory for himself.

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 12:28 PM
Perhaps it is you who has the prejudiced view on Sturm. ;) Please dont get me wrong, I think of him as the most noble hero of the Age. But to not ascribe to him normal human feelings would take away from the character. It is only human that he would want to find glory in the knighthood. It doesnt mean that he was absorbed by it. And in the end he did find true glory, probably didnt know he would, but he found it through his self sacrifice. DoWN showed me a lot of growth in his character....in the first book he seemed unlikable, a bit pompous and full of himself. Through is challenges...and I think through dealing with Derek Crownguard he became the knight he was meant to be.


Phew...this went a bit overboard....but you must understand, I tend to look aat the characters in a very deep way.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 12:31 PM
Perhaps it is you who has the prejudiced view on Sturm. ;) Please dont get me wrong, I think of him as the most noble hero of the Age. But to not ascribe to him normal human feelings would take away from the character. It is only human that he would want to find glory in the knighthood. It doesnt mean that he was absorbed by it. And in the end he did find true glory, probably didnt know he would, but he found it through his self sacrifice. DoWN showed me a lot of growth in his character....in the first book he seemed unlikable, a bit pompous and full of himself. Through is challenges...and I think through dealing with Derek Crownguard he became the knight he was meant to be.


Phew...this went a bit overboard....but you must understand, I tend to look aat the characters in a very deep way.

alright... lets assume you're correct (personally, I think Sturms foibles were very different from what you describe... I dont think personal glory was at all a concern to him, but for the sake of argument...). That still wouldn't make him a "gloryhound". You said yourself, he wasnt absorbed by it. A gloryhound would, by definition, be absorbed in the quest for glory (Derek Crownguard, anyone?)

I think he was always the person who sacrificed himself at the Tower, by the way. He didnt become that way by dealing with Crownguard... his true character was simply revealed, as it often is, in a time of crisis.

Kendermage
08-16-2004, 12:41 PM
Gee maybe I shouldn't have held that lit match up against the wick of the powder keg huh? Oops.

I was only putting a what if out there. Yes I can certainly see how Huma was modeled after Sturm. Personally I like that the characters share certain traits. Well let's add one more trait they both have in common. They both show up as ghosts in a few stories. It would be interesting to see the ghosts of Huma, Sturm, and Steel watching the victory celebration, oh wait that was Star Wars I was thinking of.

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 12:48 PM
I tend to think we are looking at the same person with near the same views. I just see things within his actions that you do not. And thats ok, because every reader is going to take something different. Sturm is an intense character, there is no doubt....my view of him is as the "Boromir" of Dragonlance.

Ravenmantle
08-16-2004, 01:03 PM
Aaaah Steel Brightblade...he is quite simply my favorite character in the Dragonlance saga! OK you can flame me now! Seriously though his entrance introduced not only a new organization (the Knights of Takhisis) but also a new concept of honor and evil co-existing. A most beautiful concept! Up until the Second Generation anthology weŽd all believed that evil turns upon itself and that it was all about killing and plundering. Steel proved that, under the right circumstances, that wasnŽt necessarily true.

Ravenmantle

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 01:30 PM
Aaaah Steel Brightblade...he is quite simply my favorite character in the Dragonlance saga! OK you can flame me now! Seriously though his entrance introduced not only a new organization (the Knights of Takhisis) but also a new concept of honor and evil co-existing. A most beautiful concept! Up until the Second Generation anthology weŽd all believed that evil turns upon itself and that it was all about killing and plundering. Steel proved that, under the right circumstances, that wasnŽt necessarily true.

Ravenmantle

Ugh! Steel was on trench coat and a pair of fangs short of Vampire: The Masquerade.

I went through this on the other board, but, as far as Im concerned, Steel stopped being evil the moment he chose to be heroic.

Sothus
08-16-2004, 01:32 PM
Aaaah Steel Brightblade...he is quite simply my favorite character in the Dragonlance saga! OK you can flame me now! Seriously though his entrance introduced not only a new organization (the Knights of Takhisis) but also a new concept of honor and evil co-existing. A most beautiful concept! Up until the Second Generation anthology weŽd all believed that evil turns upon itself and that it was all about killing and plundering. Steel proved that, under the right circumstances, that wasnŽt necessarily true.
Yes, I loved that character too... a pity there was so few about him...

Serena DarkMyst
08-16-2004, 01:52 PM
Yes....it was a pity...I almost felt that his death was arbitrary in the end of DoSF...I really didnt feel like he had to die....it was just one of those....oh....he died too...

Ravenmantle
08-16-2004, 02:02 PM
I went through this on the other board, but, as far as Im concerned, Steel stopped being evil the moment he chose to be heroic.

Well that argument calls for a debate on how we define evil...which is not the subject of this thread. I still see Steel as evil. I donŽt necessarily see sacrificing himself as translating into him being good. Does evil mean that you cannot have loved ones? friends? His sacrifice could have been made because of his immense loyalty to his Knighthood and his friends and a Krynn that he knew would not exist if Chaos had his way...

Ravenmantle

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 02:08 PM
Well that argument calls for a debate on how we define evil...which is not the subject of this thread. I still see Steel as evil. I donŽt necessarily see sacrificing himself as translating into him being good. Does evil mean that you cannot have loved ones? friends? His sacrifice could have been made because of his immense loyalty to his Knighthood and his friends and a Krynn that he knew would not exist if Chaos had his way...

Ravenmantle

For my views on the answers to these various questions, check the old boards. We had this debate at least 20 times or so.

To briefly answer... No, I dont think evil is capable of being selfless.

But you are correct... it really depends on how one defines evil.

Kendermage
08-16-2004, 02:56 PM
Book One of the Fifth Age:

Ansalon is a land of great Good and terrible Evil... Heroes will find allies and enemies everywhere... A Dragonlance adventure should always drive home the presence of this moral spectrum... This doesn't mean that heroes should see Krynn only in terms of black and white, Good and Evil. Steel Brightblade, son of a valiant Knight of Solamnia and a sinister Dragon Highlord, is a fine example of a character who combines elements of both sides. Shades of gray exist---especially in the Fifth Age.

Personally I like to tailor my games in these shades of gray. Not everyone is going to be as fantatical to the cause as say a Knight of Solamnia or a Knight of Neraka would. The Heroes of the Lance were a motley collection of white characters (Goldmoon), black characters (Raistlin), and Gray (Tanis). Though in each of these charcters one can find elements of the others. Goldmoon had a tendency to snobishness, frequently proclaiming herself to be Chieftans daughter expecting her whims to be obeyed (definitely a dark trait in my book.) Raistlin had his sympathy for the down trodden and those unable to defend themselves (definitely a white trait.) Tanis liked to help others, but hated it when it conflicted with his personal freedom. (thus the reason he is a gray character in opinion.)

While Krynn is shaped by the various forces of light and darkness, it is the shades of gray that round off the rough edges left by the other two forces, revealing the gleaming gem underneat the rough exterior.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 03:21 PM
Book One of the Fifth Age:

Ansalon is a land of great Good and terrible Evil... Heroes will find allies and enemies everywhere... A Dragonlance adventure should always drive home the presence of this moral spectrum... This doesn't mean that heroes should see Krynn only in terms of black and white, Good and Evil. Steel Brightblade, son of a valiant Knight of Solamnia and a sinister Dragon Highlord, is a fine example of a character who combines elements of both sides. Shades of gray exist---especially in the Fifth Age.

Personally I like to tailor my games in these shades of gray. Not everyone is going to be as fantatical to the cause as say a Knight of Solamnia or a Knight of Neraka would. The Heroes of the Lance were a motley collection of white characters (Goldmoon), black characters (Raistlin), and Gray (Tanis). Though in each of these charcters one can find elements of the others. Goldmoon had a tendency to snobishness, frequently proclaiming herself to be Chieftans daughter expecting her whims to be obeyed (definitely a dark trait in my book.) Raistlin had his sympathy for the down trodden and those unable to defend themselves (definitely a white trait.) Tanis liked to help others, but hated it when it conflicted with his personal freedom. (thus the reason he is a gray character in opinion.)

While Krynn is shaped by the various forces of light and darkness, it is the shades of gray that round off the rough edges left by the other two forces, revealing the gleaming gem underneat the rough exterior.

Yes, you are correct that the Heroes of the Lance were not all fanatics. But all were good aligned, save Raistlin. And I think that makes my point.

People far too often assume that in order to be conflicted, or to have a dark nature or tendancy, you have to be neutral or even evil aligned. This is a false assumption. Every mortal being is plagued with desires, weaknesses, etc. Thats what makes them interesting. But that doesnt mean that theres anything heroic about the people that give in to them. And those people are the ones who are evil.

Steel Brightblade is a good example of how the mentality of good and evil has changed. Steel was not a good person. He willingly chose to serve an evil goddess. But he also rejected that evil goddess when he realized that her evil was going to harm a great many people.

So you tell me. What tenet of evil was he following, when he decided that what Takhisis was doing was wrong? It certainly wasn't Lawful Evil... for Takhisis herself was the leader that he had chosen, and made an oath, to follow. It wasnt Neutral Evil, because he didnt do it out of self-interest, he did it out of concern for others and the future of the world itself. It wasnt Chaotic Evil because it wasnt a random, destructive decision, rather it was reasoned out and based on something (specifically, his own internal code). I submit that he ceased being Lawful Evil and chose, instead, the path of Lawful Neutral... to preserve the Balance as an extension of the natural law that governs Krynn.

Kendermage
08-16-2004, 03:36 PM
I agree with you. I think Steel changed his ways, but maybe he was always Lawful Neutral but with Dark Tendencies. I think his actions throughout DoSF bear that out. I'm just saying that I like characters that are multi-faceted and not just cardboard cutouts. I don't go for stereotypes in my games.

For the most part I have done away with alignments and instead use Nature and Demeanor like they were introduced in the Fifth Age. Of course not many people have the Fate Deck to refer to. I have made a list of traits divided into white, black, red, and dragons. Players choose traits for their charcters based on how they see thier characters. Depending on the colors chosen for one's demeanor and nature, is what the characters alignment registers as, though in my game the only way to actually know someone's alignment is to cast the ultra-rude, Detect Alignment spell. In my opinion players should only have an inkling as to their true alignment, but they shouldn't know for sure. They may think they are doing Good and being helpful but are they really Good

I am curious as to what you think about Marshal Medan. Would he too have adopted a LN outlook during the WoS? Personally I think he did. He was aligned with a dark force, but I think his heart lay elsewhere. Yes he desired order, but he saw eventually that he could not force order on people, they had to accept it for themselves.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 03:42 PM
I agree with you. I think Steel changed his ways, but maybe he was always Lawful Neutral but with Dark Tendencies. I think his actions throughout DoSF bear that out. I'm just saying that I like characters that are multi-faceted and not just cardboard cutouts. I don't go for stereotypes in my games.

For the most part I have done away with alignments and instead use Nature and Demeanor like they were introduced in the Fifth Age. Of course not many people have the Fate Deck to refer to. I have made a list of traits divided into white, black, red, and dragons. Players choose traits for their charcters based on how they see thier characters. Depending on the colors chosen for one's demeanor and nature, is what the characters alignment registers as, though in my game the only way to actually know someone's alignment is to cast the ultra-rude, Detect Alignment spell. In my opinion players should only have an inkling as to their true alignment, but they shouldn't know for sure. They may think they are doing Good and being helpful but are they really Good

I am curious as to what you think about Marshal Medan. Would he too have adopted a LN outlook during the WoS? Personally I think he did. He was aligned with a dark force, but I think his heart lay elsewhere. Yes he desired order, but he saw eventually that he could not force order on people, they had to accept it for themselves.


I agree with almost everything you said... except for the false assumption that the alignment system somehow creates cardboard cutout characters. Caramon and Sturm were both Lawful Good (at least in previous editions), but how much more different in character and perspective could you get? Alignment is not a straightjacket, it determines certain things regarding a characters outlook, no more, no less.

Kendermage
08-16-2004, 03:51 PM
That's just a personal preference for my own campaign. I'm in no way suggesting that everyone should do things as I suggest. I just find it a little more interesting than the rote LG, LE, N, etc... As for how they are cut-outs, to me it just seems everyone is pegged into one of the nine alignments with little choice or even shades of gray between the various alignments. It could be just me, but that's just how I feel about alignment. I guess a happy medium would work, keep the alignment as a the broad brush of what a charcter believes, but add in the strokes of nature and demeanor to reflect how he acts.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 03:57 PM
That's just a personal preference for my own campaign. I'm in no way suggesting that everyone should do things as I suggest. I just find it a little more interesting than the rote LG, LE, N, etc... As for how they are cut-outs, to me it just seems everyone is pegged into one of the nine alignments with little choice or even shades of gray between the various alignments. It could be just me, but that's just how I feel about alignment. I guess a happy medium would work, keep the alignment as a the broad brush of what a charcter believes, but add in the strokes of nature and demeanor to reflect how he acts.

But... I just pointed out a major hole in your "cut outs" theory, in the form of Caramon and Sturm. Both were Lawful Good... yet they were nothing alike in personality. There are tons of "shades of gray" in the alignment system.

Personally I dont care if you use a different system or toss out the concept of pre-determining something like that altogether, Im just saying... within the bounds of any of the 9 alignments, there are characters of hugely varying behavior and outlook. I could do a list if Caramon and Sturm arent different enough for you.

I could start with Takhisis (Lawful Evil) and well... just about any other Lawful Evil character. How about Steel, or Ariakan? Takhisis creates a code of "honor" in order to get the same loyalty out of her servants that Paladine gets out of his. She does not believe in, or even respect, that code or its followers. Meanwhile, Ariakan, also Lawful Evil, follows that code and believes in it fully and wholly. Steel lies somewhere in-between... he wants to believe in the code, because it is in his nature to do so, but he is forced to question the "honor" of some of the KoTs behavior. All Lawful Evil. Huge variance. That, as far as Im conerned, is shades of gray.

Kendermage
08-16-2004, 04:24 PM
I can see where you are coming from. Perhaps cut-outs was a strong term. I didn't mean to imply the Heroes of the Lance were cut-outs, far from it. It was Tanis, and all the rest who first drew me into Dragonlance. It was because of them that I started playing the adventures. They give the Setting it's feel. I don't get the same sense from other campaign worlds such as Forgotten Realms. But all too often I have read about characters and thought to myself, why didn't the author just call the character Tanis, Sturm, Tasslehoff, or Raistlin. These four characters have perpetuated a stereotype, and I guess that is what I am really trying to say. I want my characters to KNOW about the Heroes of the Lance but not BE the HotL. This is what I am trying to create with my take on alignment. One of the most intesting charcters, at least in my opinion, is Blister Nimblefingers. She is a kender, and most likely at one time in her history was just as irrepressible as Tasslehoff. However, events in her life shaped the character, and she turned out completely different from most of the other kender out there. Almost every other kender I have read about, with the exception of Blister, could have had their name changed to Tasslehoff and the book would still have read the same way. Such characters are indistinct from the standard set by the HotL. I have encountered a lot of players who think the only way to act is the same way the comapnions acted.

WildKnight
08-16-2004, 04:30 PM
I can see where you are coming from. Perhaps cut-outs was a strong term. I didn't mean to imply the Heroes of the Lance were cut-outs, far from it. It was Tanis, and all the rest who first drew me into Dragonlance. It was because of them that I started playing the adventures. They give the Setting it's feel. I don't get the same sense from other campaign worlds such as Forgotten Realms. But all too often I have read about characters and thought to myself, why didn't the author just call the character Tanis, Sturm, Tasslehoff, or Raistlin. These four characters have perpetuated a stereotype, and I guess that is what I am really trying to say. I want my characters to KNOW about the Heroes of the Lance but not BE the HotL. This is what I am trying to create with my take on alignment. One of the most intesting charcters, at least in my opinion, is Blister Nimblefingers. She is a kender, and most likely at one time in her history was just as irrepressible as Tasslehoff. However, events in her life shaped the character, and she turned out completely different from most of the other kender out there. Almost every other kender I have read about, with the exception of Blister, could have had their name changed to Tasslehoff and the book would still have read the same way. Such characters are indistinct from the standard set by the HotL. I have encountered a lot of players who think the only way to act is the same way the comapnions acted.

I can see how that might be frustrating. Personally I havent encountered this problem. I did have one player who modeled his character somewhat after Derek Crownguard, but given that he hadnt read the novels yet at that time, he didnt *know* he was modeled after Crownguard. That character ended up getting killed anyway, which resolved the issue.