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Sourcemaster2
08-14-2004, 01:07 AM
Many divine spells require a divine focus. This has always been fine, as only clerics and druids use such magic in any real way. Since the advent of the mystic, I've wondered if they too need a focus. They don't invoke a deity, after all, so a religious talisman doesn't seem neccessary. If it's true that don't need one, that could give them a fair advantage over their more traditional counterparts, and since mystics already seem more powerful than a standard cleric, the balance appears a bit off. Am I missing something, or is the difference jut not that important?

Serena DarkMyst
08-14-2004, 02:25 AM
Well...I think that'd be fine to go ahead and get rid of the need for divine foci for Mystics...it would be an advantage to boost them, since IMHO they are a tad weaker than clerics actually. The Mystic only gets one domain, and doesnt get the turn undead feature of a cleric. Unless of course you take the Sun domain...which also IMHO is a bit handicapping....So I think I will make sure that all mystics who play in my game have no need for divine foci

Sourcemaster2
08-14-2004, 03:36 AM
WHyd do you find mystics weaker? They only get one domain, but the Citadel PrC gives an additional one. The cleric spell list doesn't have enough useful spells to make preparatory casting particularly useful, and the Healing domain can replace spontaneous cure casting. Spontaneous casting can give a mystic the spells most likely to be useful almost at will, so a reasonable selection of battle and versatile spells makes them at least equal to the cleric. The Sun domain, as you said, gives turning, but it isn't truly weak. Quite a few formidable offensive and defensive spells come from there.

Sothus
08-14-2004, 05:02 AM
I haven't checked the components for the Mystic spells, so I cannot say if it is necessary...
But in my campaign, I've never checked if the PC has the material/focus component. Why?
I believe it is a loss of (real) time and (character) money having to care about them...

Cam Banks
08-14-2004, 06:37 AM
Mystics still require a divine focus, just as sorcerers still require an arcane focus when the spell calls for one. In the case of mystics, their focus is something related to their domain or which carries some personal significance. Feril and her lump of clay is one example of a mystic using a divine focus.

Cheers,
Cam

Serena DarkMyst
08-14-2004, 11:28 AM
WHyd do you find mystics weaker? They only get one domain, but the Citadel PrC gives an additional one. The cleric spell list doesn't have enough useful spells to make preparatory casting particularly useful, and the Healing domain can replace spontaneous cure casting. Spontaneous casting can give a mystic the spells most likely to be useful almost at will, so a reasonable selection of battle and versatile spells makes them at least equal to the cleric. The Sun domain, as you said, gives turning, but it isn't truly weak. Quite a few formidable offensive and defensive spells come from there.
Alot of what you have brought up is merely in the choices of advancement. The Citadel PrC simply does not count when weighing the strength of a mystic vs a cleric. So...lets do this one at a time...

Spells-
A mystic has a limited number of spells that they can cast spontaneously. A Cleric has the entire Cleric spell list to choose from, though they must pick and choose in advance, although they have spontaneous cure/inflict. I think it's pretty even here, both the classes seem to have a bit of strength here in different ways.

Domains-
Plain and simple...The Cleric has two domains....The Mystic has one. The cleric comes out on top here...There is no way you can convince me otherwise....yes, the Mystic can take the Citadel Mystic PrC for another domain...but that is irrelevant here...we are comparing two base classes.

Turn/Rebuke Undead-
A cleric has the advantage here as well. This is a class ability for them.....and though a Mystic can have this ability if they take the Sun domain...that eats up their domain....and still leaves them underpowered compared to a cleric who has access to all of this.

Bottom line is.....A cleric simply has more power at their disposal than a mystic.....dont get me wrong.....Id rather play a mystic any day.....I love the class...I think they have awesome role playing potential.

Wagadodo
08-14-2004, 11:58 AM
I think the one big adventage of the Mystic is the sponetitiy of their casting. Just like a sorcer they don't need to do any pre planning on what they are going to do. They are the perfect character class for those that like to cast magic but don't like doing all the homework.

And then again there are players that can make any character class almost unbeatable.

Serena DarkMyst
08-14-2004, 12:06 PM
I agree that that is their best feature. From the onset of 3E I thought that there needed to be a divine casting counterpart to the Sorcerer. And, honestly I'm quite surprised that they didnt include the Mystic among the new base classes in Complete Divine. But oh well...that just means that we DL fans have the Mystic all to ourselves for now.

WildKnight
08-14-2004, 01:00 PM
I agree that that is their best feature. From the onset of 3E I thought that there needed to be a divine casting counterpart to the Sorcerer. And, honestly I'm quite surprised that they didnt include the Mystic among the new base classes in Complete Divine. But oh well...that just means that we DL fans have the Mystic all to ourselves for now.


There is something along the lines of the Mystic in Complete Divine... its just that it has more of a Greyhawk feel, rather than being a direct copy of the Dragonlance class.

Madrigal of the Ogre
08-14-2004, 01:16 PM
I've never checked if the PC has the material/focus component. Why?
I believe it is a loss of (real) time and (character) money having to care about them...I can see your point Sothus -- but in the hands of a good role-player (which I am very fortunate to have in my game) the divine foci and material components make for some very interesting role-playing events. The Medallions of Faith are key foci in the Dragonlance game and I think when used correctly they add a lot to the game -- by giving players something to play-off of and help forumulate a character persona. Again, the well played Cleric of Majere in my WotL 3E game uses his medallion for more than just spell casting and turning, its become a tool that he uses to teach others, a focus for attention in crowds etc...

The material / focus component of these classes is a lot of help to players looking to add something to their role-playing.

Serena DarkMyst
08-14-2004, 02:31 PM
I can see your point Sothus -- but in the hands of a good role-player (which I am very fortunate to have in my game) the divine foci and material components make for some very interesting role-playing events. The Medallions of Faith are key foci in the Dragonlance game and I think when used correctly they add a lot to the game -- by giving players something to play-off of and help forumulate a character persona. Again, the well played Cleric of Majere in my WotL 3E game uses his medallion for more than just spell casting and turning, its become a tool that he uses to teach others, a focus for attention in crowds etc...

The material / focus component of these classes is a lot of help to players looking to add something to their role-playing.
Well.....I think that a Mystic's divine foci would be whatever it is in the PHB....considering they dont need a god, Im pretty sure they dont need a medallion of said god. ;)

Im still for canceling the need for them with Mystics. And for that matter I really dont see the sense in it for sorcerers....but Sorcerers and Wizards are a little bit more balanced against one another.

Cam Banks
08-14-2004, 03:58 PM
One important benefit that the mystic enjoys (and the Citadel mystic even moreso) is that they can cast their domain spells as many times as they like until they run out of spell slots. Some domain spells don't appear on the cleric list, and a cleric with that domain only gets to prepare one of them per day (as their bonus domain spell). This makes the mystic essentially a walking domain, more representative of that aspect than any cleric has a hope of being.

Cheers,
Cam

iltharanos
08-14-2004, 04:48 PM
Domains-
Plain and simple...The Cleric has two domains....The Mystic has one. The cleric comes out on top here...There is no way you can convince me otherwise....yes, the Mystic can take the Citadel Mystic PrC for another domain...but that is irrelevant here...we are comparing two base classes.


Unless you (not you, specifically, Serena, but a generic you all) are running a campaign where no prestige classes are allowed and only base classes are allowed, it's somewhat erroneous to discount the availability of prestige classes specifically designed to augment a base class and only available to that base class (e.g. Citadel Mystic) when analyzing the strength of prepared divine spellcaster (Cleric) versus spontaneous divine spellcaster (Mystic). A mystic character (not necessarily just a Mystic, but with certain Prestige Classes) is about on par with cleric characters ... though if I had to pick which is more powerful, I'd have to agree with Serena's assessment that Clerics come out on top.

Sourcemaster2
08-14-2004, 05:26 PM
Cam Banks, I completely forgot to mention that point, and a nonreligious focus makes sense. Serena, a cleric might get two domains, but only one spell per level can be used, whereas a mystic domain is usable at will. The two cleric domains are nice, but they don't add much power to the spell list. Few granted powers are all that useful, and I have to say that IMHO being able to cast domain spells (some from domains unaccessable to clerics) as often as any other spell is superior to preparing one of two choices per level. Also, the cleric spell list doesn't have that many great options, so a limited selection doesn't hurt nearly as much as it does to sorcerers, especially as mystics know more spells per level.

Hatrel
08-15-2004, 12:32 PM
Unless you (not you, specifically, Serena, but a generic you all) are running a campaign where no prestige classes are allowed and only base classes are allowed, it's somewhat erroneous to discount the availability of prestige classes specifically designed to augment a base class and only available to that base class (e.g. Citadel Mystic) when analyzing the strength of prepared divine spellcaster (Cleric) versus spontaneous divine spellcaster (Mystic). A mystic character (not necessarily just a Mystic, but with certain Prestige Classes) is about on par with cleric characters ... though if I had to pick which is more powerful, I'd have to agree with Serena's assessment that Clerics come out on top.

Then, you would need to incorporate the myriads of PrC's for Clerics which would again start to outweigh the Citadel Mystic again. What about the Divine Oracle from the Complete Divine? They get to have Evasion in Full Plate Armor :eek: ! I mean really!!! There are classes that give the Cleric additional domains as well. Though you still get to cast each spell once, you now have 3 or even 4 additional spells a day than other clerics...

So once you add the Cit Mystic into your calculations of Power between the Cleric and Mystic, remember the other PrC's that could be factored in to increase the Cleric's power as well.

Serena DarkMyst
08-15-2004, 12:41 PM
Which is what I was saying. Merely comparing the base classes. After all, some players choose not to multiclass into prestige classes. I know that the citadel Mystic is almost merely a Mystic Plus! PrC, but it still isnt the mystic base class. In terms of power between the two the cleric simply has more power...

Still I feel I should say that I am not complaining about the Mystic class...it is one of my favorites.

Sourcemaster2
08-15-2004, 08:03 PM
There are classes that give the Cleric additional domains as well. Though you still get to cast each spell once, you now have 3 or even 4 additional spells a day than other clerics...

Hatrel, as far as I know, no matter how many domains a cleric has, it can still only cast one domain spell per spell level. A cleric with access to 2nd level spells who has four domains can only cast one 2nd level domain spell a day, he just has 4 spells to choose from to memorize.

Serena, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. It's the same as those old sorcerer vs. wizard debates; no one ever comes out on top. I do have to say, though, that mystical power is more reliable than clerical, as it is sourced not from a deity who can withdraw it at his/her leisure, but from the mystic himself. A mystic need never worry about not being granted spells, whereas a cleric could be abandoned (as has happened, what, twice now?) and lose all magical abilities.

Serena DarkMyst
08-15-2004, 09:07 PM
Serena, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree. It's the same as those old sorcerer vs. wizard debates; no one ever comes out on top. I do have to say, though, that mystical power is more reliable than clerical, as it is sourced not from a deity who can withdraw it at his/her leisure, but from the mystic himself. A mystic need never worry about not being granted spells, whereas a cleric could be abandoned (as has happened, what, twice now?) and lose all magical abilities.
Agreeing to disagree is fine. :) However I would like to point out that what you say about mystics power being more reliable is exactly why I like them better. :D

Teclis of House Magi
08-17-2004, 10:28 AM
I like the idea of mystics needing to have some personally signifigant item to act as a form of Divine focus, helps show that the mystic relys only on themselves, and distiguished them from the cleric.
Plus, as a DM, it woud be fun, since my players already know all the Deific symbols, to throw soeting new at them.