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View Full Version : Finally got my GenCon copies of WotL and ToHS



Steel_Wind
08-29-2004, 07:20 PM
At last, I picked up my copies from friends of mine who were at Gencon last week and I've got WotL and ToHS in my hot lil hands.

Cool feature #1 was that both are autographed by both Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman. While Margaret signs those copies ordered directly from her site, the Tracy Hickman signatures as well were unlooked for and very appreciated. Chances of me E-baying my personalized copies of these are about 0.0%.

Have only had a chance to read about 50 pages or so of WotL so far, but the geography is well done. All of you will be very pleased.

My only complaint is with the maps used. None of these are a surprise to anyone here and are - for the most part - zoomed in areas of the main poster map on WotC's site with further details added.

As such, they share the same difficulties of that map. Certain geographical features on it are changed from those presented in earlier products. Mountain ragnes which once had passes no longer do. Towns are moved. Rivers sometimes shift. All of this is a touch annoying, but hardly a disaster by any means.

Yes, the details on Lemish have changed a little and altered my current campaign by changing the basic makeup of Fangoth (now a hogboglbin town), Elmwood (now the first Lemish town instead of the last Solamnic town, according to the new canon).

Most aggravating was this Kender cartographer's movement of the town of Fearfold north by 40 miles or so to the east river junction. I have the Solamnic Keep of Storm's End a town on the other side of this junction!

But not all is lost: Fearfold's ruler is now a defected Solamnic knight, so I can work with that lil tidbit for inspiration quite nicely (and *cough* keep Fearfold to the south where it belongs!).

All-in-all I am quite pleased with my cursory review so far of the material. I have barely scratched ToHS other than a quick read through Chapter 5 "The Test" but it promises to be interesting.

One note on the detailing of the NPC's of the era: Ariakus received such a *slap down* in power level I am not sure that I can agree with this vision of The Highlord of Highlords. I know that new classes and level limits from those imposed by 1st edition do require changes - but this one seems too drastic in my view. Ariakus was without doubt the most powerful mortal on Krynn. Only the High Clerist - a personality frozen in the game within the Tower of the High Clerist was his possible match.

This version of Ariakus, while a considerable adversary, is much less epic. I'm not sold on this new vision for him at all.

What was the rationalization of this severe change?

Cam Banks
08-29-2004, 07:29 PM
This version of Ariakus, while a considerable adversary, is much less epic. I'm not sold on this new vision for him at all.

What was the rationalization of this severe change?

He's the most powerful mortal of his age. When he is defeated, he opens the way for Raistlin to supplant him in that role. He's a 23rd level character.

Remember, AD&D characters with high levels are impotent second-raters in comparison to higher-level characters in 3rd edition. Ariakas was, in AD&D terms, a dual-classed 23rd level cleric and 10th level fighter. While the original 3.0 conversion document claims that this is about a 26th level character (take lower level, divide by 3 round down, and add to higher level) the fact that hit points stopped accruing at any reasonable rate after the characters reached "name level", nothing of any real consequence happened at post 15th-levels, etc means that there isn't any significant lessening of Ariakas' ability. In fact, the current Ariakas could kick the old Ariakas' *** three times around the block.

I'm just saying.

Cheers,
Cam

Madrigal of the Ogre
08-29-2004, 07:59 PM
At last, I picked up my copies from friends of mine who were at Gencon last week and I've got WotL and ToHS in my hot lil hands.

My only complaint is with the maps used. Thanks Steel_Wind. In the 3E/3.5E world, I've learned the hard way, by purchasing far too many low-quality products, the value of fan-reviews.

Hmm. Disturbing. I was really hoping that SovPress would motivate Dennis Kauth and Rob Lazzeretti (are they credited in WotL & ToHS?) to produce some maps for these coming supplements with much high quality and detail -- in the style and detail presented in the old Dragonlance Atlas.

What are the diagrams / layout maps for structures like? (i.e. Are the Towers of High Sorcerys' interiors layed out well in the ToHS book?)

Steel_Wind
08-29-2004, 08:06 PM
He's the most powerful mortal of his age. When he is defeated, he opens the way for Raistlin to supplant him in that role. He's a 23rd level character.

In fact, the current Ariakas could kick the old Ariakas' *** three times around the block.


Ah. I see. *turns the page* Knight of the Thorn et al keeps buffing the spell ability up. Not mere Wiz 5. He's got up to 8th level Wizard spells - and a lot of them - instead of Cleric 7th in first ed.

Ok. So he's a death dealing machine profane Knight of Doom, able to slap Soth silly were he so inclined.

never mind :)

snifferdoo
08-29-2004, 08:21 PM
At last, I picked up my copies from friends of mine who were at Gencon last week and I've got WotL and ToHS in my hot lil hands.

Yay!


Have only had a chance to read about 50 pages or so of WotL so far, but the geography is well done. All of you will be very pleased.

Glad to hear it.


My only complaint is with the maps used. None of these are a surprise to anyone here and are - for the most part - zoomed in areas of the main poster map on WotC's site with further details added.

As such, they share the same difficulties of that map. Certain geographical features on it are changed from those presented in earlier products. Mountain ragnes which once had passes no longer do. Towns are moved. Rivers sometimes shift. All of this is a touch annoying, but hardly a disaster by any means.


The idea was to take the maps from the DLCS and load them with the info from the 4th Age map fom TotL. But you're right it doesn't mesh 100%, but it does provide a more extensive look and fixes a few misplaced cities from the first map.


Most aggravating was this Kender cartographer's movement of the town of Fearfold north by 40 miles or so to the east river junction. I have the Solamnic Keep of Storm's End a town on the other side of this junction!

But not all is lost: Fearfold's ruler is now a defected Solamnic knight, so I can work with that lil tidbit for inspiration quite nicely (and *cough* keep Fearfold to the south where it belongs!).

Huh? Which map has Fearfold 40 miles to the south of it's current location? The TotL map has it exactly where it is in the WotL book. The DLCS doesn't even list it. :)


All-in-all I am quite pleased with my cursory review so far of the material. I have barely scratched ToHS other than a quick read through Chapter 5 "The Test" but it promises to be interesting.

Cool I look forward to more of your comments!

Cam Banks
08-29-2004, 10:46 PM
Ah. I see. *turns the page* Knight of the Thorn et al keeps buffing the spell ability up. Not mere Wiz 5. He's got up to 8th level Wizard spells - and a lot of them - instead of Cleric 7th in first ed.

Ok. So he's a death dealing machine profane Knight of Doom, able to slap Soth silly were he so inclined.

never mind :)

We never had this discussion. :)

Cheers,
Cam

Pindar
08-29-2004, 10:54 PM
Ok, so we now know that Ariakan is a 23rd level character and gave his place to raist...so Mr Banks: what level is the infamous black robe wizard? ;)

Cam Banks
08-29-2004, 11:02 PM
Ok, so we now know that Ariakan is a 23rd level character and gave his place to raist...so Mr Banks: what level is the infamous black robe wizard? ;)

Fistandantilus is 22nd level, of course!

Honestly, I haven't a clue what level Raistlin is in Legends. You'll find out some day.

And Ariakas is 23rd level, his son's something else entirely.

Cheers,
Cam

Cam Banks
08-29-2004, 11:06 PM
Ah. I see. *turns the page* Knight of the Thorn et al keeps buffing the spell ability up. Not mere Wiz 5. He's got up to 8th level Wizard spells - and a lot of them - instead of Cleric 7th in first ed.

You know, he should really have an 18 Intelligence to cast those 8th level spells. Huh. I'll toss that in the errata pile with Raistlin's hit dice.

Cheers,
Cam

DaemonAngel
08-29-2004, 11:22 PM
Congradulations on your success.

iltharanos
08-30-2004, 12:41 AM
Fistandantilus is 22nd level, of course!

Honestly, I haven't a clue what level Raistlin is in Legends. You'll find out some day.

And Ariakas is 23rd level, his son's something else entirely.

Cheers,
Cam

Nice, so what are Ariakas' level distributions?

Dragonhelm
08-30-2004, 01:17 AM
Nice, so what are Ariakas' level distributions?

wizard 5/fighter 2/Knight of the Thorn 10/legendary tactician 3/dragon highlord 3


Prior tales of Ariakas list him as being either a cleric or a wizard. By some accounts, he casted arcane spells, yet by others, he gained his power from Takhisis, thereby making him a cleric.

As it turns out, both are true. He is a wizard who gains his power from Takhisis. In essence, Ariakas is a prototype for the Knights of the Thorn (ergo his Thorn Knight levels, even though the organization isn't created for many years to come).

So there you go, my friends. The answer as to what Ariakas is after all these years. :cool:

wannabe_mage
08-30-2004, 03:54 AM
very nice. I suspect the dragon highlord to be a new PrC?

Cam Banks
08-30-2004, 06:33 AM
very nice. I suspect the dragon highlord to be a new PrC?

Correct. It's a 3-level PrC that all of the dragon highlords given in the book have at least one level of (Verminaard, Kitiara, Ariakas, Feal-Thas, Lucien, and Salah-Khan).

Cheers,
Cam

wannabe_mage
08-30-2004, 06:34 AM
Correct. It's a 3-level PrC that all of the dragon highlords given in the book have at least one level of (Verminaard, Kitiara, Ariakas, Feal-Thas, Lucien, and Salah-Khan).

Cheers,
Cam

Can't wait to get my hands on the new books :cool:

Kalharia
08-30-2004, 07:20 AM
wizard 5/fighter 2/Knight of the Thorn 10/legendary tactician 3/dragon highlord 3


Prior tales of Ariakas list him as being either a cleric or a wizard. By some accounts, he casted arcane spells, yet by others, he gained his power from Takhisis, thereby making him a cleric.

As it turns out, both are true. He is a wizard who gains his power from Takhisis. In essence, Ariakas is a prototype for the Knights of the Thorn (ergo his Thorn Knight levels, even though the organization isn't created for many years to come).

So there you go, my friends. The answer as to what Ariakas is after all these years. :cool:

Actually.. Um I happen to have a couple minor problems (Minor cause I don't intend to ever use Ariakas).

1) Didn't Ariakas take the Test, so shouldn't he have a level of WoHS? Or do you not have to take a level of WoHS if you pass the Test? (as I've always expected).

2) How did Ariakas get levels in a Prestige Class which wasn't created until 40 some years after his death?

*Smiles* I just happen to be curious, and I'm not being hostile or anything, just asking questions...

Cam Banks
08-30-2004, 07:37 AM
Actually.. Um I happen to have a couple minor problems (Minor cause I don't intend to ever use Ariakas).

1) Didn't Ariakas take the Test, so shouldn't he have a level of WoHS? Or do you not have to take a level of WoHS if you pass the Test? (as I've always expected).

Taking the Test is a requirement for taking levels in the WoHS prestige class, but it doesn't force you to. Ariakas passed his Test, then moved on - he was quite disdainful of the Orders.


2) How did Ariakas get levels in a Prestige Class which wasn't created until 40 some years after his death?

*Smiles* I just happen to be curious, and I'm not being hostile or anything, just asking questions...

Ariakas has those levels because Takhisis allowed him to. :) He's not a Thorn knight, he's their prototype. Ariakan modeled his Thorn knights after his father, and Takhisis used her success with Ariakas to broaden the distribution of her power to other wizards aligned with her.

Cheers,
Cam

Dragonhelm
08-30-2004, 07:59 AM
I imagine that WotL will cause all sorts of controversy in regards to iconic characters and their stats. This has gone on since day one, and will continue on forevermore.

Ariakas has always been a controversial character with the cleric/wizard thing. I'm sure the Thorn Knight levels will cause controversy for many years to come, but honestly, it is the most accurate fit and a very nifty "fix" for the controversy of the past.

I rather like it. :cool:

bd2999
08-30-2004, 12:40 PM
I am jealous. Still waiting for my copy of ToHS and I will have to wait a long time to get WotL. Oh well, just have to wait longer.

WildKnight
08-30-2004, 03:44 PM
I imagine that WotL will cause all sorts of controversy in regards to iconic characters and their stats. This has gone on since day one, and will continue on forevermore.

Ariakas has always been a controversial character with the cleric/wizard thing. I'm sure the Thorn Knight levels will cause controversy for many years to come, but honestly, it is the most accurate fit and a very nifty "fix" for the controversy of the past.

I rather like it. :cool:

So do I. I think its a great way of working with his novelization background. Other than the fact that hes Epic, I have no complaints with Ariakas.

Steel_Wind
08-30-2004, 09:52 PM
Huh? Which map has Fearfold 40 miles to the south of it's current location? The TotL map has it exactly where it is in the WotL book. The DLCS doesn't even list it. :)


I exaggerate a tad on the forty miles :) It's more like 10 miles given the small scale of Ansalon maps.

Still, in TotL, it is south on the river bend, not at the junction as I see it (though to be picky, in TotL, there is no dot specifying where it is at all) The name for it is certainly placed farther south.

You have it placed at the river junction.

Have a look on page 3 in the link here to see why this is distressing to me :). "Storm's End" is my campaign's "Solace", i.e., "home base".

http://www.dladventures.com/gallery/public/DL_log3.pdf

The total number of DL fans who probably care about this trivia are participating in this specific forum exchange - in other words: you and me :)

Pindar
08-31-2004, 11:55 PM
Fistandantilus is 22nd level, of course!

Honestly, I haven't a clue what level Raistlin is in Legends. You'll find out some day.

And Ariakas is 23rd level, his son's something else entirely.

Cheers,
Cam

Ok, thanks for the info.
I live in the Dominican Republic and am only waiting for the book to hit Amazon (chipper than Mrs Weis store, sorry-here the exchange rate is RD$38 X 1USD).
Please, clarify something for me...Raistlin's stats are in leyends are stated in ToHS??

talinthas
09-01-2004, 04:05 AM
nope. Raistlin is statted as a 1st level character in ToHS.

WildKnight
09-01-2004, 06:38 AM
nope. Raistlin is statted as a 1st level character in ToHS.

Yeah and theres a nifty picture of him (which I thought was Palin at first).

Pindar
09-01-2004, 08:24 PM
Ok, now I am really mixed up...why is he stated as a 1st level character in such a book??
What value does it add?
I don't understand.
Please, someify this. :confused:

snifferdoo
09-01-2004, 08:30 PM
Ok, now I am really mixed up...why is he stated as a 1st level character in such a book??
What value does it add?
I don't understand.
Please, someify this. :confused:

ToHS has Raistlin at 1st level, War of the Lance has Raistlin at 6th level, and we've been told that the Legends product coming out later on will have Raistlin at the height of his power. The problem is that people want to see Raistlin at like every level, so they can only choose so many to display. I guess Sov Press decided that this was the best way to please as many fans as possible.

Brython
09-02-2004, 10:39 AM
Hello, does Gilthanas appear in the WoTL book, im very interested in his stats currently

Cam Banks
09-02-2004, 11:06 AM
Hello, does Gilthanas appear in the WoTL book, im very interested in his stats currently

It provides his stats from just before the heroes went to Pax Tharkas, so he's a 6th level character (noble 2/wizard 3/fighter 1).

Cheers,
Cam

Mícheál
09-02-2004, 04:32 PM
Yeah and theres a nifty picture of him (which I thought was Palin at first).

I really wish SovPress would release art galleries of their books. I'm dying to see a picture of the white-robed, brown-haired young Raistlin.

Pindar
09-02-2004, 06:40 PM
I really wish SovPress would release art galleries of their books. I'm dying to see a picture of the white-robed, brown-haired young Raistlin.

I beleive that it appears in Larry elmores website, but if not check this out:
http://www.larryelmore.com/colorg09.htm

Thanks for the info on the Legends supplement...now, that would explain everything...its a good decition to have R :eek: aist in those 3 stages...but defenitly the one I am more interested in is him at his highest!

talinthas
09-02-2004, 07:13 PM
gotta be careful there. the above link isn't work safe =)

however, a direct link to the raist pic is here- http://www.larryelmore.com/popups/color/co130.htm

Brython
09-11-2004, 02:06 PM
It provides his stats from just before the heroes went to Pax Tharkas, so he's a 6th level character (noble 2/wizard 3/fighter 1).

Cheers,
Cam


Any chance of a preview of Gilthanas' stats as im starting a campaign and would be interested (that way i dont have to wait a month to begin the campaign). I will be purchasing the book as soon as it comes out as it will be invaluable for when Gilthanas meets the infellows and plays out the Chronicles.
I intend playing Gilthanas from 1st level and once he reaches 6th level he will be ready to appear in the War of the Lance but I want to get his stats correct.

Many Thanks